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Old 08-12-2009, 04:36 PM   #1
janitor
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Default If Cleavland Williams had not been shot

I got this what if buzzing through my head.

Say that Big Cat Williams had not sustained that gunshot injury.

Could he have continued to be a force at world level and perhaps even written another chapter to his career?

Thoughts?
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Old 08-12-2009, 04:43 PM   #2
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Default Re: If Cleavland Williams had not been shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
I got this what if buzzing through my head.

Say that Big Cat Williams had not sustained that gunshot injury.

Could he have continued to be a force at world level and perhaps even written another chapter to his career?

Thoughts?
It was not just the gun shot, he was also getting on in age. What was his best win before the shooting - a somewhat green Terrell? There's no reason to think he'd all of a sudden start racking up great wins after 30, gun shot or no.
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:23 PM   #3
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Default Re: If Cleavland Williams had not been shot

Quote:
What was his best win before the shooting - a somewhat green Terrell? There's no reason to think he'd all of a sudden start racking up great wins after 30, gun shot or no.
Well he was certainly good enough to pick up at least the WBA title. Afterall, Big Cat did beat the WBA champion twice on my card, first time by knockout.

Who were the best contenders 1964-1967?



Chuvalo had enough trouble with a shot williams, I would expect C Williams to win a clear decision over chuvalo or cut him up enough to stop the fight


Eddie Machen- He Drew with. Most papers had Williams ahead marginally.


Floyd Patterson- Very interesting. I could very well see Patterson winning on points, but at the same time I could see Williams flattening Patterson early. Toss up. Floyd fought more defensivley from 1964 onward, but his reflexes also slowed down at this point.


Jerry Quarry- Somewhat young, I know he has a good history against sluggers but Williams had the speed the other sluggers like foster/lyle/shavers did not have. This is a toss up.

Muhammad Ali- I will tell you this, with Williams left hook and speed.. That young clay better have watched out pre 1965.

Ernie Terrell- Knocked Terrell out first time. 2nd time floored ,and on my card and the AP card outpointed Terrell. It was a close fight but I thought C Williams edged it.

Leotis Martin- I like Williams by Kayo

Thad Spencer- I like Williams by Kayo

Doug Jones- I like williams by Kayo

Oscar Bonavena- I like Big Cat on points here. too much speed for Oscar, who will make the mistake of going toe to toe with Big Cat.

Zora Folley- Folley's biggest issue was his chin. If Williams connects, folley is likely finished. This fight should have come off way before, but never materialized. I am going to go with Big Cat by Kayo.



IMO Williams would do quite well against the crop. by 1967 I could defintley see the 33 year old Williams speed and reflexes slowing down and he would eventually drop out of top contender status soon afterward.
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:36 PM   #4
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Default Re: If Cleavland Williams had not been shot

He might never have received his title shot if he hadn't been shot. Reportedly, as it was, most in Ali's camp were reluctant to risk the title against a man with such dangerous reputation even having known about the condition he was in. To Ali's credit he wanted the fight, but if Williams had been in tip-top health maybe his camp would have been successful in blocking the fight.
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:48 PM   #5
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Default Re: If Cleavland Williams had not been shot

Un-shot Williams could have done well against the sixities crop...bad thing is they might throw him back in with Liston.....
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Old 08-12-2009, 06:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: If Cleavland Williams had not been shot

Good topic.

Big Cat would have been too much for Patterson, imo.
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Old 08-12-2009, 06:18 PM   #7
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Default Re: If Cleavland Williams had not been shot

He was supposed to fight Ernie Terrell a third time for the WBA title I believe. I think he could have very well won that fight, since he had stopped Terrell previously and went to a disputed SD loss in the rematch.

"While Machen is the man he is meeting now, Cleveland Williams is the man he was supposed to fight before Williams was shot in the stomach during a hard disagreement with a policeman near Houston."

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 08-13-2009, 04:11 PM   #8
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Default Re: If Cleavland Williams had not been shot

Big Cat Williams at his best was a good, dangerous fighter. It's hard to tell for certain how he'd of done without being shot because he was getting up there in years of course, but he certainly would of had a much better reputation simply because he would of been able to fight back against Ali.

I rewatched Williams-Terrell 2 the other day, it was a close fight that could of gone either way and I had it 5-4-1 for Terrell. Terrells another under rated fighter, 6'6 with a very good jab and a good chin, not a good matchup for Williams who traded wins with him anyway. Williams showed some good skills in this match despite losing, he did a good job of avoiding the jab and was actually landing his own jab on Ernie quite often.

It should be noted that Ali's reign of 64-67 didn't include many fighters that could of beat a Williams who was near his best. Terrell is even money with Williams at best, Patterson maybe but that's about it, so I could certainly see Williams racking up some solid wins and putting in a game effort against Ali before falling. His rep would be higher among the casual boxing fan and he wouldn't be remembered as a human punching bag against Ali.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:36 PM   #9
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Default Re: If Cleavland Williams had not been shot

He would've done well against anybody not named Liston, and Ali, and probably could've taken the WBA belt.
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Old 10-08-2012, 04:39 PM   #10
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Default Re: If Cleavland Williams had not been shot

In 1964, at age 31

The 'Big Cat' had gone 3-0-0 (1 KO)

April 10 1964..............W Dec 10...Tommy Fields
July 21, 1964..............KO 6.........Sonny Banks
September 30, 1964.....W Dec 10...Billy Daniels

Good wins but 'not' neccessarily toppling the Top Guys.

The January 1965 bout with Ernie Terrell would have been a 'Pick-Em' fight,
before the gunshot wound.

The 'Big Cat' would have a 'punchers chance' versus 'Big Ernie', but in no
way would this have been an 'easy pick'.

Win or Lose, the 'Big Cat' would have been a force in 1965 and 1966, probably
involved in another Championship bout, or 'two'.

If 'The Big Cat' did defeat Ernie Terrell in January 1965, his 'first defense' would
have been against Eddie Machen, and if successful, George Chuvalo as the 'second defense'.

1966 could be; Ernie Terrell - Eduardo Corletti - Doug Jones - Floyd Patterson - Amos Lincoln
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Old 10-08-2012, 05:41 PM   #11
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Default Re: If Cleavland Williams had not been shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
In 1964, at age 31

The 'Big Cat' had gone 3-0-0 (1 KO)

April 10 1964..............W Dec 10...Tommy Fields
July 21, 1964..............KO 6.........Sonny Banks
September 30, 1964.....W Dec 10...Billy Daniels

Good wins but 'not' neccessarily toppling the Top Guys.

The January 1965 bout with Ernie Terrell would have been a 'Pick-Em' fight,
before the gunshot wound.

The 'Big Cat' would have a 'punchers chance' versus 'Big Ernie', but in no
way would this have been an 'easy pick'.

Win or Lose, the 'Big Cat' would have been a force in 1965 and 1966, probably
involved in another Championship bout, or 'two'.

If 'The Big Cat' did defeat Ernie Terrell in January 1965, his 'first defense' would
have been against Eddie Machen, and if successful, George Chuvalo as the 'second defense'.

1966 could be; Ernie Terrell - Eduardo Corletti - Doug Jones - Floyd Patterson - Amos Lincoln
The Williams vs Lincoln fight would have been a Title unification fight in late-1966 after Amos had taken care of Clay earlier that year
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:04 PM   #12
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Default Re: If Cleavland Williams had not been shot

LH 71,

June 1966

That would have been a 'great fight'

After Amos 'Big Train' Lincoln ran over Cassius Clay in February 1966,,,,,

The 'Big Train and the 'Big Cat' meet in Las Vegas........

'7' knockdowns and '5' Rounds later,,,,,,,,'The Big Cat' is the winner of the Heavyweight
Unification Bout.

On the undercard, Cassius Clay wins a 'close' 10-Round Decision over the 'cat quick' Eduardo Corletti.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:21 AM   #13
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Default Re: If Cleavland Williams had not been shot

What part of his body was he shot?..And how did this did happen?
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:07 AM   #14
bodhi
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Default Re: If Cleavland Williams had not been shot

Not more than he did anyway. He was already getting past it and didnīt achieve much before, why would he now? He always has been average at best.
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