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Old 01-29-2008, 03:33 PM   #16
Mendoza
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Default Re: Who would you expect to beat Joe Louis at his absolute peak ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Exactly where dose the orthodoxy that Louis had a suspect chin or poor defence originate from?

I cannot see any convincing justification for either statment.
Janitor,

Louis had mundo issues with good boxers, and his defense was to blame. Check the Schmeling, Pastor, Farr, Conn, Walcott, Chalres, or Conn films. They rarely missed. The skilled boxers landed on Louis for three reasons.

1 ) A low guard.

2 ) A stick your face forward type of stance that shortened the distance between his head and the other fighter.

3 ) Easy to time and predict footwork that lacked lateral or circular movement, or dynamic bursts of speed.

If you tally it all up, you’ll see what I am talking about. I would call Louis defense and footwork average at best. He could not clinch or block shots well either. Louis was decent ducking or parrying shots. Much of Louis defense was a feared offense

The punchers who landed on Louis either visibly shook him up on film, or knocked him down. Louis could not recover from one good shot from Schemling. I would call Louis chin average among heavyweight champions. It was suspect vs solid punchers, and questionable to big punchers.
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Old 01-29-2008, 03:38 PM   #17
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Default Re: Who would you expect to beat Joe Louis at his absolute peak ?

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Originally Posted by McGrain
I can see why you would make some of these picks, but I will never understand why you would pick Frazier to do it. I didn't even look in the Louis-Frazier thread, it's ridiculous. Joe is great, and one of my favourites, but he's there to be hit and he's in with the greatest puncher the sport has ever produced, composite.

Easy win for Joe Louis, easy.
Not as ridiculous as the Peter McNeely vs Jack Dempsey thread. I think that thread was meant to be facetious though. McNeely was able to "envelope Tyson in a cocoon of horror" before being stopped in one himself.
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Old 01-29-2008, 03:39 PM   #18
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Default Re: Who would you expect to beat Joe Louis at his absolute peak ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Exactly where dose the orthodoxy that Louis had a suspect chin or poor defence originate from?

I cannot see any convincing justification for either statment.
I never said he had poor defence, but his defence is certainly not top-class. Watching film is enough to see that he is open to be hit by accurate punchers.

As far as a suspect chin, he got knocked out by Schmeling and Marciano. The second was past his prime and against an elite puncher, but it must be counted when we are comparing chins, because guys like Ali and Foreman didn't get knocked out when they were past their prime and facing elite punchers...

I have my doubts about how hard Schmeling can punch. I'm sure he was in the upper tier of the 1930s, in fact he was one of the best of the 1930s, but a ~190lb man can only punch so hard (this includes talk about Marciano and Demspey, though). If Schmeling can do it, then there's no reason for a bigger, harder puncher being unable to repeat the feat.
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Old 01-29-2008, 03:47 PM   #19
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Default Re: Who would you expect to beat Joe Louis at his absolute peak ?

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Originally Posted by Sardu
Dempsey, Marciano, Ali, Tyson, Lennox Lewis, Wladmir Klitschko. In other words: only the absolute best of the best could have beaten a prime Louis. Dempsey and Marciano had great chins and obviously the power. Ali was Ali. Tyson from 86' to 89' may have been the best ever. Lewis and Klitschko are the prototypes for the huge, athletic modern heayweights with great power and boxing skills. Holmes, Charles and Tunney would be live dogs because they were great defensive fighters. Holmes' jab makes him a huge problem for anyone in his prime. Foreman also brings a lot to the table but Louis' precision punching would probably overwhelm Big George.
I disagree with the Klitschko notions.

Wladimir has a glass jaw. He might be the favorite, but anybody who can punch is at the very least a very live underdog against Wladimir.

Vitali didn't really do anything. His shining moment is a gruesome TKO loss to a very old Lennox Lewis...most of his "demolition victories" are over complete cans. He has very few good wins over ranked, prime, legit contenders.
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Old 01-29-2008, 03:54 PM   #20
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Default Re: Who would you expect to beat Joe Louis at his absolute peak ?

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Originally Posted by radianttwilight
I disagree with the Klitschko notions.

Wladimir has a glass jaw. He might be the favorite, but anybody who can punch is at the very least a very live underdog against Wladimir.

Vitali didn't really do anything. His shining moment is a gruesome TKO loss to a very old Lennox Lewis...most of his "demolition victories" are over complete cans. He has very few good wins over ranked, prime, legit contenders.
I don't think Klitschko's chin is as bad as people think. He was ambushed and caught cold against Sanders. In the other two loses he just gassed out. I don't recall mentioning Vitali in my post. Vitali had a great chin and punch but less overall ability than his younger brother.
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Old 01-29-2008, 04:16 PM   #21
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Default Re: Who would you expect to beat Joe Louis at his absolute peak ?

I think it's a bit unfair to compare Louis with today's top boxers, since boxing and boxers have evolved. If Louis had been active today and at his prime he would be bigger and stronger while retaining the handspeed and skill of the Louis of ca 1937-1942. The only fighter I would bet on against a Louis that's active today is Ali, because of his blinding speed and fantastic skill.
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Old 01-29-2008, 04:26 PM   #22
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Default Re: Who would you expect to beat Joe Louis at his absolute peak ?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by radianttwilight
I never said he had poor defence, but his defence is certainly not top-class. Watching film is enough to see that he is open to be hit by accurate punchers.
Anybody can be hit by acurate punchers.

What exactly is your point?

Quote:
As far as a suspect chin, he got knocked out by Schmeling and Marciano. The second was past his prime and against an elite puncher, but it must be counted when we are comparing chins, because guys like Ali and Foreman didn't get knocked out when they were past their prime and facing elite punchers...
OK but then you have to consider that guys like Liston and Holmes and Tyson who are considerd to have good chins were also knocked out late in their careers under less auspicious circumstances.

All that the Marciano knockout dose is put him in the same bracket as these guys.

Quote:
I have my doubts about how hard Schmeling can punch. I'm sure he was in the upper tier of the 1930s, in fact he was one of the best of the 1930s, but a ~190lb man can only punch so hard (this includes talk about Marciano and Demspey, though). If Schmeling can do it, then there's no reason for a bigger, harder puncher being unable to repeat the feat.
Of course not.

The point is that Schmeling needed a twelve round sustained shelacking to put Louis away. George Foreman and Mike Tyson (both cited as granit chined fighters) were put away by lesser beatings from Muhamad Ali and James Douglas respectivley.

All the Schmeling fight proves tis that Louis can be put away by an elite puncher if he can outbox him over twelve rounds.

All the Marciano fight proves is that a shell of Louis can be put away by a prime all time great in the second half of a competitive fight.

The fact that these are his only stopage losses, taken in isolation, suggests that his chin was among the better ones in heavyweight history.
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Old 01-29-2008, 04:32 PM   #23
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Default Re: Who would you expect to beat Joe Louis at his absolute peak ?

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Originally Posted by Bokaj
I think it's a bit unfair to compare Louis with today's top boxers, since boxing and boxers have evolved.
How could you possibly conclude that boxing had evolved in any positive way by comparing Louis to the heavyweight beltholders of today?

Putting some of these these overweight slugs in the ring with Louis would be cruelty to children.

Would you want to watch what Louis would do to Peter, Ibragimov or Chagev?
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Old 01-29-2008, 04:34 PM   #24
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Default Re: Who would you expect to beat Joe Louis at his absolute peak ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Janitor,

Louis had mundo issues with good boxers, and his defense was to blame. Check the Schmeling, Pastor, Farr, Conn, Walcott, Chalres, or Conn films. They rarely missed. The skilled boxers landed on Louis for three reasons.

1 ) A low guard.

2 ) A stick your face forward type of stance that shortened the distance between his head and the other fighter.

3 ) Easy to time and predict footwork that lacked lateral or circular movement, or dynamic bursts of speed.

If you tally it all up, you’ll see what I am talking about. I would call Louis defense and footwork average at best. He could not clinch or block shots well either. Louis was decent ducking or parrying shots. Much of Louis defense was a feared offense

The punchers who landed on Louis either visibly shook him up on film, or knocked him down. Louis could not recover from one good shot from Schemling. I would call Louis chin average among heavyweight champions. It was suspect vs solid punchers, and questionable to big punchers.
I disagree with just about every point you make in this post.
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Old 01-29-2008, 04:39 PM   #25
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Default Re: Who would you expect to beat Joe Louis at his absolute peak ?

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
I disagree with just about every point you make in this post.
Then show me where I went wrong besides saying I disagree with just about every point you made. I have films, news reads, and specific rounds to show you why I feel my points are correct.



Quote:
Louis had mundo issues with good boxers, and his defense was to blame. Check the Schmeling, Pastor, Farr, Conn, Walcott, Chalres, or Conn films. They rarely missed. The skilled boxers landed on Louis for three reasons.

1 ) A low guard.

2 ) A stick your face forward type of stance that shortened the distance between his head and the other fighter.

3 ) Easy to time and predict footwork that lacked lateral or circular movement, or dynamic bursts of speed.

If you tally it all up, you’ll see what I am talking about. I would call Louis defense and footwork average at best. He could not clinch or block shots well either. Louis was decent ducking or parrying shots. Much of Louis defense was a feared offense

The punchers who landed on Louis either visibly shook him up on film, or knocked him down. Louis could not recover from one good shot from Schemling. I would call Louis chin average among heavyweight champions. It was suspect vs solid punchers, and questionable to big punchers.
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Old 01-29-2008, 04:46 PM   #26
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Default Re: Who would you expect to beat Joe Louis at his absolute peak ?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Janitor,

Louis had mundo issues with good boxers, and his defense was to blame. Check the Schmeling, Pastor, Farr, Conn, Walcott, Chalres, or Conn films. They rarely missed. The skilled boxers landed on Louis for three reasons.
All fighters can be hit by skilled boxers provided that the reach is comparable. To say that he was hit by skilled boxers is a bit like saying that sombody had trouble hitting fighters with good defence.


Quote:
1 ) A low guard.
Louis as a counterpuncher used a low guard but he adopted a high guard while moving in. I dont think that you would argue that all fighters with a low guard were necisarily easy to hit.

Quote:
2 ) A stick your face forward type of stance that shortened the distance between his head and the other fighter.
The range that he worked at made him more suceptible to being hit but that is a feature of style rather than defence.

Quote:
3 ) Easy to time and predict footwork that lacked lateral or circular movement, or dynamic bursts of speed.
I disagree. Louis tended to be economical with his footwork but on the ocasions when he felt the need to use it he was verry good. Look at the Baer fight for example.

Quote:
He could not clinch or block shots well either.
I strongly disagree.

His glove blocking was amomg the best I have seen in a heavyweight and he clinched well enough to neutralize anybody when he wanted to.

Quote:
The punchers who landed on Louis either visibly shook him up on film, or knocked him down.
If you trawl through footage of his fights you will see that he got clocked by punchers all the time and shook it off just like Sonny Liston did.

His number of knockdowns might simply be an artefact of the sheer number of fights he had against ranked oponents.

Quote:
Louis could not recover from one good shot from Schemling.
Speculative.

Whatever the case it took twelve rounds to put him away and that is the more important test.

Quote:
I would call Louis chin average among heavyweight champions. It was suspect vs solid punchers, and questionable to big punchers.
Then why did none of the dozens of punchers he fought find a way to capitalize on it?

Its not like they were given any shortage of opportunities.

The only fighter who ever stoped him at any meaningfull stage of his career did it by outboxing him over twelve rounds.
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:16 PM   #27
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Default Re: Who would you expect to beat Joe Louis at his absolute peak ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Then show me where I went wrong besides saying I disagree with just about every point you made. I have films, news reads, and specific rounds to show you why I feel my points are correct.
I dont think Joe Louis had a "low guard". He holds his right beneath his chin, high, in parrying position. His left is held out in jabbing position, and his left shoulder has the left side of the point of his chin covered. He slips and parries simultaneously. TEXTBOOK STYLE.

Obviously, all boxers leave themselves open at times. That is in the game, impossible to avoid. And no boxer executes perfectly every second of every round.

I have the Louis-Farr fight and Louis makes Farr miss on many occasions. Both guys boxed beautifully in that fight.

Louis had great footwork, IMO. He fought in flat-footed style but could turn his position in an instant to create the angle. Guys who might appear to have him cornered are side-stepped and ripped apart by Louis in single defensive/offensive movements.

Louis's stance was compact, and he often fought with his upper body in the semi-crouch. This is textbook stuff, the predominant style among American fighters, he slips inside punches and his lead hand is in a closer position for attack, and with better leverage for power punching. Stand-up, lean-back boxers are of the old European or old English style, and often those stances are inferior. Most American champs have fought in the stance that you say puts the chin in closer proximity to the opponent. Most guys who advance leaning back get their heads hooked off !
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:53 PM   #28
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Default Re: Who would you expect to beat Joe Louis at his absolute peak ?

If Louis had been a small heavyweight with slow, predictable footwork, a "stick-your-face-forward" type stance (!), a low guard and a questionable chin, he would've been decapitated. We're talking about a guy who fought literally dozens of world class opponents and was stopped only once in 70 professional fights prior to his swansong against Marciano, and even then went seven rounds on his feet with one of the hardest hitters of all time before he was finally taken out. A fighter with the make-up described by Mendoza would have been iced numerous times in all those big fights.
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Old 01-29-2008, 05:58 PM   #29
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Default Re: Who would you expect to beat Joe Louis at his absolute peak ?

If Billy Conn almost acheived it.. Then a prime Larry Holmes would have pecked and poked his way to dismantling the smaller slower Louis. Joe was a damn living legend .. God Bless J L Barrow..
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Old 01-29-2008, 06:11 PM   #30
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Default Re: Who would you expect to beat Joe Louis at his absolute peak ?

Nobody.
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