Pride > ufc

[Thracian]

Any doubt here that at 205 and heavyweight, PRIDE was much deeper than the UFC during the respective primes of the UFC & PRIDE?

[sugarngold]

The UFC had a solid 205 division. You have to remember that Wanderlei started his reign of terror in Pride AFTER losing to Tito in the UFC.

Pride had a lock on the heavyweights without a doubt. There's no comparing Tim Sylvia/Arlovski to Nogueira/Fedor/Crocop/Herring/Coleman.

[scurlaruntings]

Originally Posted by Thracian

Any doubt here that at 205 and heavyweight, PRIDE was much deeper than the UFC during the respective primes of the UFC & PRIDE?

Considering all PRIDE had when it originally started was a heavy division then they added Middleweight (Light Heavy) and so on it stands to reason they had the better talent. Apart from Chuck Couture and Tito 205 in the UFC was a wasteland. By that time even Shamrock didn't count.

[Thracian]

Rampage wrecked Liddell in PRIDE.

Jon Jones is the top 205er right now, and would probably beat Shogun in any era, prime vs prime, but its cool to see Wanderlei and Hunt getting these wins against good UFC opponents.

The TUF scrubs of today are not even worth mentioning, even compared to past-it PRIDE fighters.

[scurlaruntings]

Originally Posted by Thracian

Rampage wrecked Liddell in PRIDE.

Jon Jones is the top 205er right now, and would probably beat Shogun in any era, prime vs prime, but its cool to see Wanderlei and Hunt getting these wins against good UFC opponents.

The TUF scrubs of today are not even worth mentioning, even compared to past-it PRIDE fighters.

Under PRIDE rules prime for prime no chance.
Jones length will always cause any fighter at 205 problems but he has his work cut out seriously under PRIDE rules and looses one of his best assets, elbows.

[Peter__1987]

I'm a big a PRIDE fan as anyone but I think it's a bit of a case of nostalgia ruling your head when you suggest Shogun from PRIDE would of beat JBJ.

He would of got smashed as well.

[Rob_Floyd]

Originally Posted by scurlaruntings

Under PRIDE rules prime for prime no chance.
Jones length will always cause any fighter at 205 problems but he has his work cut out seriously under PRIDE rules and looses one of his best assets, elbows.

Under Pride rules there is still no scenario against Jones where Shogun would be able to use stomps/knees to a grounded opponent/soccer kicks. There would be, however, a lot of opportunities for Jones to do so.

Not to say that a prime Shogun wouldn't have a much better chance.

[scurlaruntings]

Originally Posted by Rob_Floyd

Under Pride rules there is still no scenario against Jones where Shogun would be able to use stomps/knees to a grounded opponent/soccer kicks. There would be, however, a lot of opportunities for Jones to do so.

You must have a crystal ball. As seeing as there is a MASSIVE difference between fighting in a cage and a ring, as well as under rules JJ has never fought under before, i don't see how you're able to make that conclusion, when JJ has never used a soccer kick or knee's to a downed opponent in his entire career.

[Thracian]

I love Shogun, and it would definitely be a closer fight than they had in 2011.

2005 Shogun vs 2012 Jones would be epic!

[Rob_Floyd]

Originally Posted by scurlaruntings

You must have a crystal ball. As seeing as there is a MASSIVE difference between fighting in a cage and a ring, as well as under rules JJ has never fought under before, i don't see how you're able to make that conclusion, when JJ has never used a soccer kick or knee's to a downed opponent in his entire career.

We are talking in hypotheticals, here. I think Jones would probably be able to pick up those tools. It's not like soccer kicks are a very subtle art.

There is no way of knowing that Jones wouldn't be equally as effective in a ring as in a cage.

[Rob_Floyd]

I think Arona would be a more stylistically interesting fight, to be honest.

[scurlaruntings]

Originally Posted by Rob_Floyd

We are talking in hypotheticals, here. I think Jones would probably be able to pick up those tools. It's not like soccer kicks are a very subtle art.

There is no way of knowing that Jones wouldn't be equally as effective in a ring as in a cage.

Indeed they were not. But both soccer kicks and foot stomps were an integral part of the Chute Boxe arsenal. Jones without his elbows would certainly have great difficulty in a ring when he's used to the cage. Granted we're talking about a lot of unknown intangibles here but there's no way prime for prime you can just nonchalantly dismiss Shogun when he was easily one of the most precocious talents to ever grace 205 in MMA history.

[EL BULLY]

Originally Posted by Rob_Floyd

Under Pride rules there is still no scenario against Jones where Shogun would be able to use stomps/knees to a grounded opponent/soccer kicks. There would be, however, a lot of opportunities for Jones to do so.

Not to say that a prime Shogun wouldn't have a much better chance.

Jones has never been on his back and he's never been knocked down so the chance of him landing soccer kicks is infinitely more likely than him having to eat any. JBJ is too big, too strong and too good at 205 for any fighter from any organisation at any time in my opinion. Does this mean UFC is better than Pride or vice versa? No. This argument is a bit like comparing VHS to Betamax, it's the quality of the films that count, not the format.

[scurlaruntings]

Originally Posted by Rob_Floyd

I think Arona would be a more stylistically interesting fight, to be honest.

No chance. Arona was great on the mat. But on his feet and even his submission game was poor. I wouldn't envisage him taking Jones down at all. And if the fight remained on its feet he'd get stopped.

[Rob_Floyd]

Originally Posted by scurlaruntings

Indeed they were not. But both soccer kicks and foot stomps were an integral part of the Chute Boxe arsenal. Jones without his elbows would certainly have great difficulty in a ring when he's used to the cage. Granted we're talking about a lot of unknown intangibles here but there's no way prime for prime you can just nonchalantly dismiss Shogun when he was easily one of the most precocious talents to ever grace 205 in MMA history.

My intention wasn't to dismiss him at all. I love Shogun; I just would just give the edge to Jones even under Pride rules, if I had to bet.