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Old 10-07-2012, 03:05 PM   #1
Skittlez
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Default When should losses count against your legacy?

At what point does losses count against your legacy?
First sign of decline? When you are definitely shot?

What about your very early losses, at a young age? Do they count against your legacy?

Wladimir vs Ross Purrity?
Amir Khan vs Prescott?


When did Roy's losses stop counting against him?
When did Tyson's.

What about Ali vs Leon Spinks in 1978?


I say that Roy's losses against Tarver and Johnson should definitely be considered when judging his legacy.
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:08 PM   #2
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Default Re: When should losses count against your legacy?

As a fighter, losses should always count against against your legacy.

Now the degree to which they count can be affected by things like strength of competition, the degree to which the fighter lost, and whether or not the loss was avenged.
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:10 PM   #3
Skittlez
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Default Re: When should losses count against your legacy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy8s View Post
As a fighter, losses should always count against against your legacy.

Now the degree to which they count can be affected by things like strength of competition, the degree to which the fighter lost, and whether or not the loss was avenged.
Good post.
How much weight do you put on the Johnson loss for Roy Jones?
At that point he was already KOed once by Tarver, but was still a heavy favorite against Johnson and was still a solid fighter going in.
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:12 PM   #4
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Default Re: When should losses count against your legacy?

Roys losses to Tarver & Johnson count....unfortunately so do the Calzage & Bhops...sorry but we can't just right them off because we don't like them...

Bhop is a fag....waited to roy was a real piece of shit to fight him
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:21 PM   #5
crazy8s
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Default Re: When should losses count against your legacy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skittlez View Post
Good post.
How much weight do you put on the Johnson loss for Roy Jones?
At that point he was already KOed once by Tarver, but was still a heavy favorite against Johnson and was still a solid fighter going in.
Eh... not very high. But it definitely still counts against him though. The way I think of it is: Jones' chin was never really built to go past supermiddlewieght. But Johnson was still good enough that I think he gets credit for stopping him.
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:30 PM   #6
Henke67
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Default Re: When should losses count against your legacy?

When you're obviously past-it, I don't hold any loss against a fighters legacy. Does anyone seriously think the Berbick loss has even the slightest effect on Ali's ranking. What about Chavez and Grover Wiley or whatever his name was?

I'm more inclined to hold early career losses against someone because they already have their physical attributes but it depends on the case. Arguello, Armstrong and Hopkins lost very early on - considering how little they knew and how much they improved, said losses don't mean much.

Generally, unless you're really green or obviously past-it, defeats count against you.
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:33 PM   #7
crazy8s
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Default Re: When should losses count against your legacy?

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Originally Posted by Henke67 View Post
When you're obviously past-it, I don't hold any loss against a fighters legacy. Does anyone seriously think the Berbick loss has even the slightest effect on Ali's ranking. What about Chavez and Grover Wiley or whatever his name was?

I'm more inclined to hold early career losses against someone because they already have their physical attributes but it depends on the case. Arguello, Armstrong and Hopkins lost very early on - considering how little they knew and how much they improved, said losses don't mean much.

Generally, unless you're really green or obviously past-it, defeats count against you.
They should still count imo, but obviously not very much. Especially in situations like like Berbick/ Ali.
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: When should losses count against your legacy?

all the time unless you're shot or close to it
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:35 PM   #9
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Default Re: When should losses count against your legacy?

I suppose theres a weighting on all losses.

Holyfields wins over Tyson obviously have far greater rating than the Williams and McBride fights.

Just like with Ali,we can just wipe out the Holmes/Berbick fights, but obviously the Frazier/Norton losses mean more
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:37 PM   #10
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Default Re: When should losses count against your legacy?

I'm not sure very early losses should count against legacy. Often that's just the result of bad management. This is especially true for Mexican fighters, many of whom turn pro at like 15 and are fed to the wolves (or feed themselves to the wolves just to earn some scratch).
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:40 PM   #11
SouthpawJab
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Default Re: When should losses count against your legacy?

I don't count B-Hop's first loss, and I strongly discredit Pac's first two losses(although he shouldn't have been draining so much weight)

I tend to discount pre and post prime losses mostly...unless a prime loss has some special factor toward it(Like Dawson cutting a division to fight Ward)
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:51 PM   #12
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Default Re: When should losses count against your legacy?

When a loss comes late in a career after guy has obviously lost some, it can be shrugged off to a degree.

It can also be said when a guy is ambitious and ends up biting of more than he can chew, a a la DLH at mw, etc. I can't fault a guy for testing his boundaries. It's what makes the sport great.
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:51 PM   #13
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Default Re: When should losses count against your legacy?

Whenever a fighter loses they become the "leftovers" of the fighter that beat them. You didn't know this?
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Old 10-07-2012, 04:21 PM   #14
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Default Re: When should losses count against your legacy?

1) Very early losses. That depends a bit on the previous experience - so if golden medalist losses his first fight it is different than someone who really had no experience with boxing.

2) Losses when someone is clearly past prime. I realize it makes it a bit like vicious cirle, because usually we consider someone to be past prime when he starts losing, but there are clear cases like for example Holyfield - whatever happens his legacy is secure.

3) Robberies. Seems obvious, but no one mentioned it so far. Also close fights that could go either way do not have such impact like clear losses.

4) Injuries. I mean real injuries, preferably visible during the fight, not some problems with toes or most of the excuses you hear from fighters usually.



Another thing is the quality of opponent. If you fight someone who is at least as good as you, someone is usually going to be a loser. I have no problems with Hearns losing to SRL or Hagler, it is clearly different league than Wlad against Sanders or Brewster. I agree with previous comment about "testing your bondaries" - even fighting way above/below your optimal weight may chage the impact (like with Duran during the later part of his career).
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