Is sugar Ray Leonard the greatest welterweight?

[burt bienstock]

ESB, if you want to understand and watch Sugar Ray Robinson, YOUTUBE to
"Reputations Sugar Ray Robinson Documentary "
a 47 minute feast of Ray Robinson ,the GREATESt all around fighter I ever saw...
Watch it and this thread question would be superfluous...Great doc...

[Senor Pepe']

Originally Posted by PityTheFool

Pepe,I was under the impression that the WBA didn't want that fight to happen because Ray was a free agent and Cuevas was a good earner who did as he was told.
They felt Ray would be of little or no use to them because,despite his earning potential,he wasn't a "team player"

I'm very much an admirer of Cuevas but Ray fought and beat better fighters,and I don't think this would be close at all,especially in 1980.
Only my opinion though.No more or less valid than anyone else's.

I'm sure evertyhing was 'revolving' around money.

The Panamanian Officials wanted Roberto Duran to fight Ray Leonard, as that is where
the 'big money' was. Plus, Carlos Eleta felt that Ray Leonard (in 1980) was an easier bout for Roberto.

Carlos Eleta, in the Panamanian Press, stated, that he was always worried about Pipino's early
fight power, especially in 1979/1980.

Jose Palacios, a Mexican Welterweight who fought Pipino Cuevas and Carlos Palomino, and also
sparred with Roberto Duran - told Roberto to stay away from Pipino in 1979.

[Senor Pepe']

In December 1942

An elimination tournament, which could have featured;

* Ray Robinson
* Henry Armstrong
* Freddie Cochrane
* Fritzie Zivic

Ray Robinson had '2' previous victories over Fritzie Zivic (October 1941) and (January 1942)

Fritzie Zivic had '2' previous victories over Henry Armstrong (October 1940) and (January 1941),
but also lost to Henry Armstrong (October 1942).

Freddie Cochrane, defeated Fritzie Zivic (July 1941), but also lost to Fritzie (September 1942).

The 'Matchmaker' positions #1 Ray Robinson vs. #3 Freddie Cochrane - and
#2 Henry Armstrong vs. #4 Fritzie Zivic

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

ESB, if you want to understand and watch Sugar Ray Robinson, YOUTUBE to
"Reputations Sugar Ray Robinson Documentary "
a 47 minute feast of Ray Robinson ,the GREATESt all around fighter I ever saw...
Watch it and this thread question would be superfluous...Great doc...

There's some material left out, but overall pretty quality.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhmN04u56CM&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhmN04u56CM&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/ame]

[Flea Man]

The 'Pound For Pound' documentary is my favourite Robbo' one, was on YouTube in it's entirety not long ago, may still be

[Hands of Iron]

Pound for Pound, Bright Lights and Dark Shadows, Reputations...

There's a few out there. I just wish one of them would put together ALL of the footage each of them contain in one comprehensive film. There's bits here and there.

[Hands of Iron]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqMAHlEL4qU&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqMAHlEL4qU&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/ame]

[Senor Pepe']

It is overwhelming,,,,,,,,

Sugar Ray Robinson so far ahead of Ray Leonard,,,,,,,,,

In a modification, 'Sugar Ray' Robinson would have won the Welterweight Championship
in early 1943.

In December 1942, the Sugar Man would have won by a 12-Round Decision over
Freddie Cochrane in the Elimination Round.

Then in February 1943, he would have stopped (TKO 13) Henry Armstrong (who defeated
Fritzie Zivic by 12-Round Decision in his Elimination Round).

Sugar Ray starts his Welterweight 'reign' from February 1943.

The bout with #2 Henry Armstrong would have been fairly 'even' through 10-Rounds,
but Sugar Ray would have pummeled Henry after that.

[Senor Pepe']

January 1943

Welterweight Tournament

Ray Robinson
Ranking.........#1
Age.............21 1/2
Height..........5' 11"
Reach..........72"
record..........40-0-0 {29 KO's}

Henry Armstrong
Ranking........#2
Age.............34
Height..........5' 5 1/2"
Reach..........67"
Record.........123-15-8 {86 KO's}

Freddie Cochrane
Ranking.......#3
Age............27 1/2
Height.........5' 7 1/2"
Reach.........69"
Record........65-33-0 {19 KO's}

Fritzie Zivic
Ranking.......#4
Age............29 1/2
Height........5' 10"
Reach.........71"
Record........126-33-6 {66 KO's}

#1 Ray Robinson wins a 'one-sided' 12-Round Decision over #3 Freddie Cochrane in the Elimination Round,
'Sugar Ray' dominated early, and withstands a hard rush by Freddie in Rounds 4, 6 and 7. But in Round 9
Sugar Ray takes over, and cruises through the last 4 Rounds.
{Scorecard 8-3-1 = for Ray Robinson}

#2 Henry Armstrong builds up an early lead over the rough-housing #4 Fritzie Zivic. Then the bout turns into
a vicious battle in Round 5. Zivic is penalized '2-points' for intentional fouling, but his tactics are working as he
he begins to wear down Armstrong over the later rounds. In Rounds 11 and 12, Henry is just barely able to hold
on, as Zivic hits Henry with everything. Armstrong just makes it to the final bell, with Zivic pounding him all over
the ring.
{Scorecard 6-5-1 = for Henry Armstrong}

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

It is overwhelming,,,,,,,,

Sugar Ray Robinson so far ahead of Ray Leonard,,,,,,,,,

Well, I guess if you had SRL as your #2 Welterweight it would make him reasonably close, Pepe.