Is sugar Ray Leonard the greatest welterweight?

[Clinton]

Originally Posted by hernanday

As the title suggest is he, guy fought all the way up to light heavyweight in an effort to find competition, beat all 3 other members of marvelous 4, and the way he moves and hits, his speed, his endurance, makes me wonder if any one could convincingly beat him in a best of 3 series.

I wished he did fight aaron hawk time pryor though, it probably be one of the greatest fights ever.

I'm 51 and not a fan of Leonard's, but he's the best welterweight I've seen in my lifetime. However,I take Robinson over him anyday. But, Leonard did not "fight all the way up to lightheavyweight in an effort to find competition". His only fight at lighheavy was against Donny LaLonde, who wasn't a particularly good champion. And the fight was at the 168 limit for the newly established supermiddleweight title and gave Leonard another shot at a championship. LaLonde was willing to move down while defending his 175 title in order to get a big payday from the goose that laid the golden egg. Had LaLonde won the fight(lol), he would have been a 2 weight beltholder.

[SJS19]

Leonard is the only Welterweight who could achive some sort of sucess by punching with Robinson IMO.

If Leonard fights his perfect fight, then he could win.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by SJS19

Leonard is the only Welterweight who could achive some sort of sucess by punching with Robinson IMO.

If Leonard fights his perfect fight, then he could win.

What is Ray Leonard better at that Ray Robinson?

[Longhhorn71]

Armstrong, Barney Ross, Mickey Walker, and other fighters at welter could beat SRL.

Many great fighters at 147.

[orriray59]

Originally Posted by SJS19

Leonard is the only Welterweight who could achive some sort of sucess by punching with Robinson IMO.

If Leonard fights his perfect fight, then he could win.

Nah man, I really don't think so. Robinson was a frighteningly fast and hard puncher with amazing timing. If SRL decided to trade with him, he's going to get his chin checked. Quickly.

[PhillyPhan69]

No, he is not! He is about a unanimous lock for 2-5, with the consensus being #2. I would rate him 2, but could argue Gavilan I guess. To a lesser degree Armstrong. I think Napoles (my 5) was better, but resume accomplishment wise SRL proved to be greater.

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

What is Ray Leonard better at that Ray Robinson?

Punches were more straight and tight, was better defensively, a tick above in terms of foot speed. Possibly with the hands as well, although there's not much of 147 Robinson that isn't nauseating to watch due to choppiness. Robinson's power and chin were on a completely different level - and he was damn fast himself, arguably the greatest combination puncher. He doesn't need much more than that to beat most. I could see his dismantling of Hearns looking as crude as it gets.

[SJS19]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

What is Ray Leonard better at that Ray Robinson?

Please don't be the 'Robinson was better at absoloutley everything' guy.

I hate that guy.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

Punches were more straight and tight, was better defensively, a tick above in terms of foot speed. Possibly with the hands as well, although there's not much of 147 Robinson that isn't nauseating to watch due to choppiness. Robinson's power and chin were on a completely different level - and he was damn fast himself, arguably the greatest combination puncher. He doesn't need much more than that to beat most. I could see his dismantling of Hearns looking as crude as it gets.

Tommy would step to Ray and get annihilated before he could get on his bike

I'm sure I'm giving the edge there to any of 'em, Leonard's defence was better but even then, it's not a massive edge in this fight anyway.

Robinson is better wherever the fight goes. That's enough for me.

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by Longhhorn71

Armstrong, Barney Ross, Mickey Walker, and other fighters at welter could beat SRL.

Many great fighters at 147.

I really doubt it, especially the first two. SRL was a freak and the definition of a natural welterweight thoroughbred. Even scarier considering the heart and balls he came equipped with.

[Senor Pepe']

Lots of 'greats' in this group,,,,,,,,,

Clearly, Ray Leonard is in the Top 5, which is good enough to be considered a
'certified, stamped and sealed' Great Fighter.

Though he never did answer the 'rematch questions' with Wilfred Benitez at 147 lbs.

Jose 'Pipino' Cuevas, even after losing to Thomas Hearns would have been an interesting match.

Thomas Hearns couldn't make 147 lbs. after their first bout, so a rematch bout was not
relevant 147 lbs.

And of course, Donald Curry could have been in the mix.

Few remember this, but Mike Trainer was trying to set up fights for Ray with
A) Alexis Arguello.......B) Salvador Sanchez......C) Antonio Cervantes

Talk about 'cherry picking' little guys.

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

Tommy would step to Ray and get annihilated before he could get on his bike

I'm sure I'm giving the edge there to any of 'em, Leonard's defence was better but even then, it's not a massive edge in this fight anyway.

Robinson is better wherever the fight goes. That's enough for me.

Robbi takes them all out one way or another.

Do you give Gavilan a shot at stopping Hearns late in a 15-rounder? He certainly had the stamina and chin to stand up to him, and a frenzied level of activity when he saw fit. Just a real pain in the ass to deal with for anybody.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by SJS19

Please don't be the 'Robinson was better at absoloutley everything' guy.

I hate that guy.

I'm not that guy, I wanted to see where you were coming from.

Robinson has the advantages here though.

So, how does Leonard go about it?

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

Robbi takes them all out one way or another.

Do you give Gavilan a shot at stopping Hearns late in a 15-rounder? He certainly had the stamina and chin to stand up to him, and a frenzied level of activity when he saw fit. Just a real pain in the ass to deal with for anybody.

I'm one of the few who always picks Gavilan to stop Hearns late in a 15 rounder.

[SJS19]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

I'm not that guy, I wanted to see where you were coming from.

Robinson has the advantages here though.

So, how does Leonard go about it?

He comes out on the balls of his feet, and sticks the jab. That's most important. Stick the jab, but not to the chin, to the eye. Obscure Robinson's vision.

Double the jab and break convention by moving towards the supposed power hand of Robinson. Keep that left hand working, and move laterally. The balance has to be right. Not straight back, but not far left enough as to go into range of the left hook.

Shoot the right hand straight, with no real power. Simply a scoring punch and follow up with a combination. (Leonard is the better combination puncher here.) Again, scoring punches, not power punches so to speak. Land quick, land clean and move. Off set the rythm.

If I'm Dundee I make it clear there's no showboating tonight. 15 rounds of clear concentration. Leonard's chin will hold up to the occasional shot, but nobody is taking a sustained beating from Robinson and coming away with a smile on his face.

If I claim Leonard to be the superior athlete, would you dispute that? He really was a 147lb Specimin.

Robinson is easier to hit that one would expect, but that's misleading. Leonard needs to keep at mid range, dipping and moving to not leave a steady target. Fight smart. Play chess. Feint downstairs with the jab and then shoot the right over the top. Then either tie up, or move. We're not exchanging tonight, we've manouvering.

Robinson punches heavy, so whenever in close I'd want Leonard to flurry to the hip bones. (And old latin trick, A prime example is Trinidad vs Vargas.) Take the punchers base, and add to Leonard's advantage in movement. The flurry has to be calculated. Brief and explosive, then Leonard must be back to defensive posture straight away, and moving by some form or another. Again the key point 'off set the rythm.'

You can pick the above apart, I could do it myself. Bear in mind I don't dispute Robinson being the best fighter of all time, nor do I dispute him beating Leonard. My point is simply that there is a chance for 80's Sugar. When you're as great as he was, there is always a chance.