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Old 10-04-2012, 01:03 PM   #1
babaluma
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Default The Original 8 Weights...Which of these fighters is still ATG?

Which of these fighters with excellent records as champions at the
"in-between weights" would still be champions or have ATG legacies in the days of 8 weight classes with one champion per weight?

WBC

Ricardo Lopez
Wilfredo Gomez
Jung-Koo Chang
Azumah Nelson
Terry Norris
Nigel Benn

WBA

Myung-Woo Yuh
Khaosai Galaxy
Samuel Serrano
Antonio Cervantes
Aaron Pryor

IBF

Ratanapol Sor Vorapin
Vuyani Bungu

WBO

Iván Calderón
Johnny Tapia
Marco Antonio Barrera
Acelino Freitas
Joe Calzaghe
Chris Eubank
Johnny Nelson
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:07 AM   #2
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Default Re: The Original 8 Weights...Which of these fighters is still ATG?

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Old 10-10-2012, 09:29 AM   #3
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Default Re: The Original 8 Weights...Which of these fighters is still ATG?

Vorapin was not very good IMO. No way he does anything at flyweight. By all accounts (and judging by both fighters opposition) he was a lesser version of Vorasingh.

Lopez would've have to fight Arbachakov. Not sure he wins that but he would've been a big flyweight anyway so yeah, he'd still be great IMO.

Chang essentially did win the lineal flyweight championship but was robbed second time against Chitalada.

Calderon has NO CHANCE at flyweight. NONE.

Khaosai didn't even fight the best super flys of his era. He did beat one of the better bantamweights but if he'd stepped it up against say, Happy Lora he'd get schooled and against Jeff Fenech he'd get mauled. He was a tank at super fly. If he fought guys his own size more regularly you'd see him lose a fair bit IMO. His brother was better and could quite dominate the field at 118.

Serrano would not have beat the best lightweights of his time, was barely the best super feather. Same goes for Cervantes, Pryor and the welterweights.

Barrera was lineal featherweight champ. Not a valid example.

Calzaghe beat (not lineal but arguably no.1) light heavyweight champion.

Last edited by Flea Man; 10-10-2012 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:58 AM   #4
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Default Re: The Original 8 Weights...Which of these fighters is still ATG?

benn won't do too well v the best at lhw imo, so i guess he stays a middleweight through his career
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:27 AM   #5
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Default Re: The Original 8 Weights...Which of these fighters is still ATG?

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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Vorapin was not very good IMO. No way he does anything at flyweight. By all accounts (and judging by both fighters opposition) he was a lesser version of Vorasingh.

Lopez would've have to fight Arbachakov. Not sure he wins that but he would've been a big flyweight anyway so yeah, he'd still be great IMO.

Chang essentially did win the lineal flyweight championship but was robbed second time against Chitalada.

Calderon has NO CHANCE at flyweight. NONE.

Khaosai didn't even fight the best super flys of his era. He did beat one of the better bantamweights but if he'd stepped it up against say, Happy Lora he'd get schooled and against Jeff Fenech he'd get mauled. He was a tank at super fly. If he fought guys his own size more regularly you'd see him lose a fair bit IMO. His brother was better and could quite dominate the field at 118.

Serrano would not have beat the best lightweights of his time, was barely the best super feather. Same goes for Cervantes, Pryor and the welterweights.

Barrera was lineal featherweight champ. Not a valid example.

Calzaghe beat (not lineal but arguably no.1) light heavyweight champion.
Yeah MAB my bad. Good analysis thanks.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:29 PM   #6
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Default Re: The Original 8 Weights...Which of these fighters is still ATG?

If I were being honest and not just trolling Flea I would hesitate with Lopez. Two things make him a top 100 type guy: longevity and consistency (as represented by that glittering record). His resume is spotty at best. A couple of excellent fighters, a few good ones, and a slew of mediocrity.

As a flyweight his resume would improve exponentially: Arbachakov, Carbajal, Gonzales, Johnson, Pongsaklek, maybe Eric Morel. If he fought everybody available and finished with the exact same record he's a top 10 guy easy.

The problem is he wouldn't. I think he could beat Carbajal and Gonzales. I think he's 50/50 against Yuri. But no way he beats Mark Johnson. And do you think a 35 year old Lopez is outboxing Eric Morel? Part of the reason Lopez had such stupendous longevity was because he fought only 20 hard rounds in his career. Run him through the gauntlet and he fades like any other little guy. So instead of 50-0 he's 46-4 or 47-3 and just another forgotten and underrated flyweight.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:33 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Original 8 Weights...Which of these fighters is still ATG?

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If I were being honest and not just trolling Flea I would hesitate with Lopez. Two things make him a top 100 type guy: longevity and consistency (as represented by that glittering record). His resume is spotty at best. A couple of excellent fighters, a few good ones, and a slew of mediocrity.

As a flyweight his resume would improve exponentially: Arbachakov, Carbajal, Gonzales, Johnson, Pongsaklek, maybe Eric Morel. If he fought everybody available and finished with the exact same record he's a top 10 guy easy.

The problem is he wouldn't. I think he could beat Carbajal and Gonzales. I think he's 50/50 against Yuri. But no way he beats Mark Johnson. And do you think a 35 year old Lopez is outboxing Eric Morel? Part of the reason Lopez had such stupendous longevity was because he fought only 20 hard rounds in his career. Run him through the gauntlet and he fades like any other little guy. So instead of 50-0 he's 46-4 or 47-3 and just another forgotten and underrated flyweight.
I agree with every word and haven't changed or added one
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: The Original 8 Weights...Which of these fighters is still ATG?

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I agree with every word and would add that Lopez probably doesn't beat a prime Saman in a rematch.
Flea control yourself!
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:48 PM   #9
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Default Re: The Original 8 Weights...Which of these fighters is still ATG?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleRed View Post
If I were being honest and not just trolling Flea I would hesitate with Lopez. Two things make him a top 100 type guy: longevity and consistency (as represented by that glittering record). His resume is spotty at best. A couple of excellent fighters, a few good ones, and a slew of mediocrity.

As a flyweight his resume would improve exponentially: Arbachakov, Carbajal, Gonzales, Johnson, Pongsaklek, maybe Eric Morel. If he fought everybody available and finished with the exact same record he's a top 10 guy easy.

The problem is he wouldn't. I think he could beat Carbajal and Gonzales. I think he's 50/50 against Yuri. But no way he beats Mark Johnson. And do you think a 35 year old Lopez is outboxing Eric Morel? Part of the reason Lopez had such stupendous longevity was because he fought only 20 hard rounds in his career. Run him through the gauntlet and he fades like any other little guy. So instead of 50-0 he's 46-4 or 47-3 and just another forgotten and underrated flyweight.
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:55 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Original 8 Weights...Which of these fighters is still ATG?

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Flea control yourself!


Seriously, Lopez would've and should've blasted him if he'd moved up to rematch the Thai during his best patch of form. In about five or six rounds rather than two. Lopez would've beaten Chiquita IMO, and I'd give Carbajal a punchers chance only, but a decent one.

If he could pick his shots as well as we know he could and keep range as brilliantly as he usually could, then I think he could've moved up and beaten Kittikasem by stoppage. He'd be able to take the small amount that would get through I imagine, and even as a fly I think his dig would be hard enough to put the vulnerable Thai banger away.

Pichit Sithbangprachan would've been an interesting clash of undefeated champions. Lopez beat some average Korean stylist, I watched it again recently. He was Korean, but not very good at it. Lopez tapped him on the shoulder whenever he got inside and the fella (Kim something I imagine) just stepped off*

In his next fight the Korean was drafted in to be one of Pichit's horrendous fall guys, and went inside a round. The Thai could dig, and although Blanco wasn't really all that, Pichit showed a solid offence. Really impressive considering a massive fly and big puncher like McAuley could drop but could not stop Blanco. Yuh could, but after a few rounds. The Thai wasted him. I haven't seen his very next fight after Blanco, where he was apparently god awful. But still, interesting.

Arbachakov? Now that's a different kettle of fish entirely.

*Chang the octopus wouldn't stand for that shit.
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:55 PM   #11
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Default Re: The Original 8 Weights...Which of these fighters is still ATG?

Your panda terrorist does not scare me fiendish Dr. Wu!
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:35 PM   #12
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Default Re: The Original 8 Weights...Which of these fighters is still ATG?

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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post


Seriously, Lopez would've and should've blasted him if he'd moved up to rematch the Thai during his best patch of form. In about five or six rounds rather than two. Lopez would've beaten Chiquita IMO, and I'd give Carbajal a punchers chance only, but a decent one.

If he could pick his shots as well as we know he could and keep range as brilliantly as he usually could, then I think he could've moved up and beaten Kittikasem by stoppage. He'd be able to take the small amount that would get through I imagine, and even as a fly I think his dig would be hard enough to put the vulnerable Thai banger away.

Pichit Sithbangprachan would've been an interesting clash of undefeated champions. Lopez beat some average Korean stylist, I watched it again recently. He was Korean, but not very good at it. Lopez tapped him on the shoulder whenever he got inside and the fella (Kim something I imagine) just stepped off*

In his next fight the Korean was drafted in to be one of Pichit's horrendous fall guys, and went inside a round. The Thai could dig, and although Blanco wasn't really all that, Pichit showed a solid offence. Really impressive considering a massive fly and big puncher like McAuley could drop but could not stop Blanco. Yuh could, but after a few rounds. The Thai wasted him. I haven't seen his very next fight after Blanco, where he was apparently god awful. But still, interesting.

Arbachakov? Now that's a different kettle of fish entirely.

*Chang the octopus wouldn't stand for that shit.
I've seen **** all of Pinchit so I'll have to watch that.

Here's my take with Lopez: he could've blasted out way more guys early if he wanted to. But he fought in that Harold Johnson style and when Lopez knocked you out you were done. Even if you were literally staggering around the ring like a drunk at closing time Lopez.was waiting for the perfect moment to end it. And if it didn't come that was no skin off his nose.

Sorry to go off on a slightly distant tangent but have you ever seen Johnson vs Doug Jones. There's a late round where he all but decapitates Jones who was like a year away from giving Ali hell and eating everything a young Bob foster could throw at him. Had he stepped up the attack Jones wouldn't have heard the final bell. But that's how he and Lopez were: they realized that the problem with going for the knockout was it left you open.

I have no clue why I just typed all that but I think my original point was if the knockout was there Lopez took it. But if it wasn't there he didn't reach for it so its not surprising.when even lesser talent hung around.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:09 PM   #13
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Default Re: The Original 8 Weights...Which of these fighters is still ATG?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Pichit Sithbangprachan would've been an interesting clash of undefeated champions.
It's a mismatch.

Lopez couldn't handle slick fast southpaws.

Pichit destroys him inside 2 rounds.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:17 PM   #14
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Default Re: The Original 8 Weights...Which of these fighters is still ATG?

Some of the divisions these guys would have been competing in would be stacked had the junior weights been done away with.

Lopez, Calderon, Galaxy, Serrano, Norris, Entertainer Nelson, Cervantes, Vorapin would have suffered a lot

Some because i just don't think they were that good and benefited greatly from feasting on cannon fodder, some who were good but have ended up with oddly inflated reputations they would never be likely to replicate(galaxy, Lopez) and would in an obviously bigger talent pool now, some others because of great opponents in the way(Cervantes)

Pryor likely stays at lightweight and eventually has his similar success and drugs fuelled downfall there.


Calzaghe could well have found it more difficult as his style does seem to suited to being damn effective in that 168 comfort zone, but too big for 160 and not hard hitting or elusive enough for 175, though he would still be solid there.

Eubank might well have actually benefited here.He really seemed the Moore, Charles type that has the body to evolve comfortably from 160 to 175.168 only provided a temptation to stay at a weight that was doable if he drained himself and the effects were seen over the latter half of his career.Even in that first fight with Thomson at cruiser he looked much sharper than he had for the vast majority of his latter 168 fights and that was obviously a step too far.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:17 PM   #15
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Default Re: The Original 8 Weights...Which of these fighters is still ATG?

I know what you mean LittleRed perhaps Wlad is another that clearly has devastating fits but doesn't over commit?

Anyway, Lopez knocked guys out when he caught 'em sweet and always tried to put it together so he hit guys sweet. More often than not the stoppage came.
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