Roy Jones vs. Harry Greb @ MW.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

Luf, we will never see films of Harry Greb in action...SO WHAT ?
We may never see a tornado as an eyewitness but we judge the severity of yje hurricane by it's aftermath of damage done...Same with Harry Greb...We read of his incredible record ,beating every Hall of Fame fighters he fought. Most of them taller, heavier and stronger, but NOT TOUGHER...
There are so many VIVID accounts of Harry Greb's fights ,hundreds of them by top notch writers describing his greatness, stamina, enormous speed
and ability to throw volleys of punches in any opponents mush, and never
giving them the ball...They were busy protecting themselves from his non stop attack...Virtually all his opponents declared Greb the best fighter they ever faced for a damn good reason, HE WAS...Sure it is nice to see a film, but even seeing a film of any old fighter tells nothing about that oldtimer.
What fight was on the film is important...For example if 100 years from njow the onlky film available of Ray Robinson was a film of Ray getting his
ass kicked by Randy Turpin in London or Ralph Tiger Jones, the fans likely would conclude that Robinson was not that good as the "oldtimers" said.,,.They could not be more wrong...Harry Greb did amazing things in the ring for him to be lauded as the greatest...What 160 pound MW could fight 45 bouts in one year, and win THEM ALL. What MW could lick the BEST Lightheavyweights and heavyweights of his time,spotting them
10-35 pounds and ONE EYE to boot ? No other than Harry Greb with 300 bouts...Cheers.

so I'm not willing to make a pick on him without first seeing him.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by SouthpawJab

Roy Jones is world's faster than the guys they saw lol.

And we know this how?

[turbotime]

Originally Posted by orriray59

Hypothetically.

How can you say he is, or isn't without ever seeing a second of Greb footage? It's not inconceivable that Greb could be that fast. Granted, I doubt it, but you have nothing to go by.

I think Jones would be too big, powerful and fast for Harry. But then again, outside of some tap around sparring with an old O'Brien, there's nothing on Greb to judge his speed or his style.

By all accounts he was very similar to Joe Calzaghe. Fast, throws lots of punches, etc.

I posted those tear emotes because we will never know that and it breaks my heart

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by janitor

The fighters with the fastest handspeed are essentialy born, and there is no reason to think that there could not have been a fighter as fast as Jones on 1700.

Yes speed can't be trained, that's why sprinters don't train at all

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Yes speed can't be trained, that's why sprinters don't train at all

I do think though, that for a primed athlete (like a fighter) getting much faster is out of the question. I think of it as "training for quickness", being careful not to do things "turgidly", like clumsily or anything like that.

You can see, in a fighter, how fast they can be pretty early doors I think it's fair to say.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Yes speed can't be trained, that's why sprinters don't train at all

Train me another Roy Jones then.

I will give you unlimited resources.

I think that power and reflexes in a fighter, are based on neurology more than anything else.

The cliche about a puncher being born holds true.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by McGrain

I do think though, that for a primed athlete (like a fighter) getting much faster is out of the question. I think of it as "training for quickness", being careful not to do things "turgidly", like clumsily or anything like that.

You can see, in a fighter, how fast they can be pretty early doors I think it's fair to say.

Have you boxed McGrain, as you improved your technique did you not notice an significant improvement in speed? As you throw punches constantly and regularly don't you notice improvements in your speed and sharpness? As your abbs/core get stronger you notice better coordination and speed in power punches, especially in combination. Certain exercises can make you more explosive

I mean there's a genetic top level for everyone ofcourse

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Have you boxed McGrain, as you improved your technique did you not notice an significant improvement in speed? As you throw punches constantly and regularly don't you notice improvements in your speed and sharpness? As your abbs/core get stronger you notice better coordination and speed in power punches, especially in combination. Certain exercises can make you more explosive

I mean there's a genetic top level for everyone ofcourse

Of course someone like me would do things more quickly. But we're not talking about someone like me - i'd say anyone that has been boxing two years AND receiving good training is nearly maxed out in terms of speed.

Like I say, there are things you can do to make yourself more together, more organised, less clumsy, but that's about it if you're a highly tuned athlete.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by janitor

Train me another Roy Jones then.

I will give you unlimited resources.

I think that power and reflexes in a fighter, are based on neurology more than anything else.

The cliche about a puncher being born holds true.

Yes and no, if a puncher is 'born' and he learns how to punch with poor form and continues to punch with poor form or throws arm punches, he will never be a puncher even with perfect genetics

Also being a knock out puncher isn't simply about power, it's landing a punch in the right place at the right time'.

'It's not how hard you hit them, it's where you hit them' - Mike Tyson (paraphrased)

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by janitor

Train me another Roy Jones then.

I will give you unlimited resources.

I think that power and reflexes in a fighter, are based on neurology more than anything else.

The cliche about a puncher being born holds true.

Roy trained very hard from an amateur on. The talent has to be there, but there is a lot of work necessary to make it world class.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Yes and no, if a puncher is 'born' and he learns how to punch with poor form and continues to punch with poor form or throws arm punches, he will never be a puncher even with perfect genetics

Also being a knock out puncher isn't simply about power, it's landing a punch in the right place at the right time'.

'It's not how hard you hit them, it's where you hit them' - Mike Tyson (paraphrased)

I don't dispute any of this, but these are things that some fighters come to grips with and others don't, in all eras.

Harry Greb for all his greatness, could be criticised on punching and finishing technique, while many fighters that he dominated were absolute masters in these respects.

I see no compelling reason why you couldn't have a fighter in 1800 who punched like Rocky Marciano, or had reflexes like Jones.

One early fighter who was probably as fast as Jones (albeit much smaller) is Young Griffo. I don't see how he could have clowned the best technical boxers in a lower weight class the way he did, if he was not.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Roy trained very hard from an amateur on. The talent has to be there, but there is a lot of work necessary to make it world class.

Not only that but Roy's father taught him how to box, how to punch with perfect form from a young age, to the extent it developed into his muscle memory.

Obviously great genetics too

[LittleRed]

Its called the myth of talent. As if Roy just suddenly woke up with blazing speed and reflexes and anticipation. He trained his whole damn life to be that good. He's Mozart.

[rusak]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Greb was the fastest fighter that Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey ever saw. And I think they saw a lot more fighters than anyone on this board.

They never saw Roy Jones though.

Since Greb liked fighting bigger guys, let him come in at 165 or so against Jones at 180-185. Jones is bigger, almost certainly faster. I suspect Jones is actually quite a bit faster.

Greb can't bully Jones, so what is he going to do? Let's not pretend that Greb wasn't stopped by welterweights either. I think Jones in those small gloves has an excellent chance at a stoppage.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by rusak

They never saw Roy Jones though.

Since Greb liked fighting bigger guys, let him come in at 165 or so against Jones at 180-185. Jones is bigger, almost certainly faster. I suspect Jones is actually quite a bit faster.

Greb can't bully Jones, so what is he going to do? Let's not pretend that Greb wasn't stopped by welterweights either. I think Jones in those small gloves has an excellent chance at a stoppage.

Why the hell should Greb come in at 165 and Jones at 180-85 ? Is not this thread @ MW, or are you ignoring the meaning of this thread ???
Mr expert, who is the welterweight that "stopped" Harry Greb ??? Joe Chip an experienced middleweight stopped the WW Greb when Harry was just starting his career...Egad !