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Old 10-21-2012, 04:18 PM   #1
SuzieQ49
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Default My top 10 middleweights of the 1940s

1. Charley Burley
2. Lloyd Marshall
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Archie Moore
5. Jake Lamotta
6. Holman Williams
7. Marcel Cerdan
8. Eddie Booker
9. Tony Zale
10. Jack Chase

HM: Georgie Abrams
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Old 10-21-2012, 04:19 PM   #2
lufcrazy
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Default Re: My top 10 middleweights of the 1940s

My pick for top MW year by year

Ceferino Garcia Oct 1939 Mar 1940
Henry Armstrong Mar 1940 May 1940
Ken Overlin May 1940 Nov 1941
Tony Zale Nov 1941 Aug 1942
Charley Burley Aug 1942 Dec 1942
Lloyd Marshall Dec 1942 Dec 1943
Jack Chase Dec 1943 Feb 1944
Holman Williams Feb 1944 Mar 1945
Cocoa Kid Mar 1945 Apr 1945
Joe Carter Apr 1945 May 1945
Holman Williams May 1945 Apr 1946
Bert Lytell Apr 1946 Aug 1946
Charley Burley Aug 1946 Sep 1946
Tony Zale Sep 1946 Jul 1947
Rocky Graziano Jul 1947 Jun 1948
Tony Zale Jun 1948 Sep 1948
Marcel Cerdan Sep 1948 Jun 1949
Jake La Motta Jun 1949 Feb 1951
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Old 10-21-2012, 05:24 PM   #3
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Default Re: My top 10 middleweights of the 1940s

McGrain,

Why should Holman be top 2? He lost to Cocoa Kid way too often to make top 2.
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Old 10-21-2012, 06:08 PM   #4
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Default Re: My top 10 middleweights of the 1940s

Not sure if Moore should even make a top10, from recollection he didn't do much below the 160lb limit,

Charles had a shit how purple patch but not much depth to his resume at the weight

Holman is way too low

To be honest though it's hard to rate the murderer's row fighters with the none murderer's row fighters, they didn't fight enough
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:17 PM   #5
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Default Re: My top 10 middleweights of the 1940s

Lamottas best years were behind him by the time he won the title. Zale and Graziano were not the best middleweights by a long shot 1946-48. Armstrong best MW 1940?
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:12 AM   #6
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Default Re: My top 10 middleweights of the 1940s

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
1. Charley Burley
2. Lloyd Marshall
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Archie Moore
5. Jake Lamotta
6. Holman Williams
7. Marcel Cerdan
8. Eddie Booker
9. Tony Zale
10. Jack Chase

HM: Georgie Abrams
Why wouldn't you put Bert Lytell over Chase or Abrams? Just want to hear the reasoning.
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:54 AM   #7
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Default Re: My top 10 middleweights of the 1940s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
Lamottas best years were behind him by the time he won the title. Zale and Graziano were not the best middleweights by a long shot 1946-48. Armstrong best MW 1940?
Presumably because he beat Garcia (his top guy beforehand) in reality.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:05 AM   #8
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Default Re: My top 10 middleweights of the 1940s

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
1. Charley Burley
2. Lloyd Marshall
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Archie Moore
5. Jake Lamotta
6. Holman Williams
7. Marcel Cerdan
8. Eddie Booker
9. Tony Zale
10. Jack Chase

HM: Georgie Abrams
What a line-up. I would not favor a single middleweight in the history of the sport to run this gauntlet undefeated.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:19 AM   #9
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Default Re: My top 10 middleweights of the 1940s

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
McGrain,

Why should Holman be top 2? He lost to Cocoa Kid way too often to make top 2.
How about the best W resume in the history of the division?

Burley
Burt Lytell
Archie Moore
Kid Tunero
Aaron Wade
Lloyd Marshall
Jose Basora
Eddie Booker
Jack Chase
Steve Belloise
Jimmy Leto
Gene Buffalo
Izzy Jannazzo
Cocoa Kid

Most of them multiple times. Yes, he lost the series to CK, and more than a handful of other fights, but was any MW so tested? An absolutely absurd resume.

I have Williams higher on my ATG MW list than you do on your 1940's list.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:56 AM   #10
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Default Re: My top 10 middleweights of the 1940s

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
How about the best W resume in the history of the division?

Burley
Burt Lytell
Archie Moore
Kid Tunero
Aaron Wade
Lloyd Marshall
Jose Basora
Eddie Booker
Jack Chase
Steve Belloise
Jimmy Leto
Gene Buffalo
Izzy Jannazzo
Cocoa Kid

Most of them multiple times. Yes, he lost the series to CK, and more than a handful of other fights, but was any MW so tested? An absolutely absurd resume.

I have Williams higher on my ATG MW list than you do on your 1940's list.
Yeah, I like your list quite a bit. Way better than that HW list from back in 2007 that's bumped from time to time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
01 - Sugar Ray Robinson
02 - Carlos Monzon
03 - Harry Greb
04 - Marvin Hagler
05 - Holman Williams
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:07 AM   #11
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Default Re: My top 10 middleweights of the 1940s

Mcgrain,

That is impressive. I will move up Holman. I just can't rate him above Lloyd Marshall. Look what Marshall did to a prime ezzard charles, fresh off his victories over Burley. Look what Marshall then did to a prime charley burley over 10 rounds. Then look at the way Marshall handled a peak jake lamotta.



As for Jack Chase, did you not see whom he defeated? He beat Eddie Booker, Lloyd Marshall, Archie Moore. Those 3 victories alone get him on my list.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:30 AM   #12
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Default Re: My top 10 middleweights of the 1940s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
Lamottas best years were behind him by the time he won the title. Zale and Graziano were not the best middleweights by a long shot 1946-48. Armstrong best MW 1940?
Yeah he deserved to beat Garcia who was the best MW before him.

Zale and Graziano were in one of the greatest trilogies in history, during this time Murderers row had outgrown the division or were shot, I see no reason to place anyone above Zale or Graziano during that period.

Jake might have been better before but he's my pick for the best when he was champ.
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:13 PM   #13
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Default Re: My top 10 middleweights of the 1940s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shake View Post
What a line-up. I would not favor a single middleweight in the history of the sport to run this gauntlet undefeated.
How would any of these great fighters beat a well rested two eyed Harry Greb ? He beat great heavier fighters weekly and a Ken Overlin who beat the undefeated MW Ezzard Charles,and other great MWs sober or high
opined " I believe that Harry Greb would have defeated me and my #1
contender ,both on the same night, with no rest between fights".
Heady words about Harry Greb by Ken Overlin...You can't beat what you can't hit, especially when you have gloves pumped in your face...
Greb Uno 1...
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:31 PM   #14
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Default Re: My top 10 middleweights of the 1940s

Quote:
Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Yeah he deserved to beat Garcia who was the best MW before him.

Zale and Graziano were in one of the greatest trilogies in history, during this time Murderers row had outgrown the division or were shot, I see no reason to place anyone above Zale or Graziano during that period.

Jake might have been better before but he's my pick for the best when he was champ.
The Zale and Graziano trilogy was great but at this point neither were the best middleweight in the world by a long shot. I dont have Mickey Ward and Arturo Gatti as the best junior welterweights or welterweights in the world either despite how good their fights were.

I also dont necessarily agree that Garcia was the best middleweight in the world at this time and certainly dont think that one draw against him by Armstrong qualifies Armstrong as the best middleweight in the world.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:32 PM   #15
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Default Re: My top 10 middleweights of the 1940s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Tywin View Post
The Zale and Graziano trilogy was great but at this point neither were the best middleweight in the world by a long shot. I dont have Mickey Ward and Arturo Gatti as the best junior welterweights or welterweights in the world either despite how good their fights were.

I also dont necessarily agree that Garcia was the best middleweight in the world at this time and certainly dont think that one draw against him by Armstrong qualifies Armstrong as the best middleweight in the world.
who was above them?

who was above garcia
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