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Old 10-22-2012, 09:56 AM   #46
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries, underated ?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
It's comforting to know that the question of whether Jeffries is underated or not has been so thoroughly addressed in this thread.
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:17 AM   #47
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries, underated ?

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Oh my, bar his impact and early dominance what did Dempsey do to deserve to rated above the others when he is clearly lacking in the other criteria you posted? I don't count inactive longetivity as longetivity.

In terms of accomplishments he managed to duck the two greatest fighters of the era and instead of fighting them fought their leftovers (if you are going to mention his rise to heavyweight champ as being his dominance then Arnold Cream has just as much reason to be in top 10), in terms of his skillset he was outboxed 19 rounds to 1 against the only true other GREAT fighter he fought, his competition in a H2H sense and a general sense is perhaps one of the weakest ever, only Jeffries springs to mind as having worse. As for the longetivity like I said I wouldn't count inactive longetivity as longetivity.

Gene Tunney has niether a generational impact, dominance, accomplishments, competition and longetivity over Marciano or the 3 ranked below him and has no reason to be ranked above. In fact you'd be hard press to have credible criteria to rank him in the top 10 let alone just outside the top 5.
My criteria is a guide, rather than a profound logic of greatness. This is what I attempted to allude to when I said "take everything with a grain of salt." Such is the case for Dempsey's lack of longevity. But Dempsey's years of 1914-1923 ALONE are still longer than Marciano's career.

When you say "the two greatest fighters of the era," are you referring to Wills and Langford? Just wanted to clarify.

As for Gene Tunney: He, not Muhammed Ali, revolutionized the heavyweight division, that, by every definition, is residual impact. And he, always using his brains, managed to either win or at least not lose -- against every man he ever stepped into the ring with.

I find his career, as a whole, very underrated. Simply looking at his career, as is, it carries a mystique of greatness that only a handful can match. Of course, as with everybody, there is men he should've -- or at least the fans think -- fought. From Sugar Ray Robinson and Charley Burley to Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao.

Marie Curie wrote, One never notices what has been done; one can only see what remains to be done ..."
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:18 AM   #48
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries, underated ?

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
It's comforting to know that the question of whether Jeffries is underated or not has been so thoroughly addressed in this thread.
Well that us what we're doing, just in the most roundabout way possible. To determine whether Jeffries is underrated, first we have to see where he is rated, and why then who rates above him, and why, and if that is consistent. Without a meaningful consensus the word underrated has no value.
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:35 AM   #49
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries, underated ?

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Originally Posted by Aaron Contreras View Post
My criteria is a guide, rather than a profound logic of greatness. This is what I attempted to allude to when I said "take everything with a grain of salt." Such is the case for Dempsey's lack of longevity. But Dempsey's years of 1914-1923 ALONE are still longer than Marciano's career.

When you say "the two greatest fighters of the era," are you referring to Wills and Langford? Just wanted to clarify.

As for Gene Tunney: He, not Muhammed Ali, revolutionized the heavyweight division, that, by every definition, is residual impact. And he, always using his brains, managed to either win or at least not lose -- against every man he ever stepped into the ring with.

I find his career, as a whole, very underrated. Simply looking at his career, as is, carries a mystique of greatness that only a handful can match. Of course, as with everybody, there is men he should've -- or at least the fans think so -- fought. From Sugar Ray Robinson and Charley Burley to Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao.

Marie Curie wrote, One never notices what has been done; one can only see what remains to be done ..."
Dempsey may have fought for longer but Marciano fought better opposition and ducked no one. I was refering btw, to Wills as you pointed out, and Greb, a case could also be made for Langford.

I'm a BIG Gene Tunney fan but he didn't have that much of a impact at heavyweight, he cracks most people's top 20 but top 10 is a stretch. Despite his short stay he racked some big scalps like Gibbons and Dempsey but even tho he completely dominated them, they were both past it. He also gets penalised by history for having fought very few punchers and blacks. A great, great fighter but a top 10 heavyweight? Nah.
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:44 AM   #50
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries, underated ?

I think Jefferies is underated, as is the case with many past fighters, even noteworthy greats like Jefferies. I remember reading about him years ago, and from what I can gather he was one of the hardest, toughest SOB's out there, no argument from me.

Tracy Callis the respected Boxing Historian places Jefferies quite high indeed (as do others), and I think he wrote a bio on him too. Jefferies I think was the goods and he's the kind of fighter you'd would want to see against, Marciano, Frazier, Forman & Tyson...

killer battles!
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:46 AM   #51
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries, underated ?

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Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie View Post
Dempsey may have fought for longer but Marciano fought better opposition and ducked no one. I was refering btw, to Wills as you pointed out, and Greb, a case could also be made for Langford.

I'm a BIG Gene Tunney fan but he didn't have that much of a impact at heavyweight, he cracks most people's top 20 but top 10 is a stretch. Despite his short stay he racked some big scalps like Gibbons and Dempsey but even tho he completely dominated them, they were both past it. He also gets penalised by history for having fought very few punchers and blacks. A great, great fighter but a top 10 heavyweight? Nah.
Oh okay, I knew it was one of those three -- maybe even Walker? Hell, I'd even like to see Jimmy Wilde against any of these heavyweights we're talking about

Tunney changed the heavyweight division, forever. That can't be taken away from him and I don't believe there will ever be as big of a radical change in ANY weight-class from now to eternity.
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:51 AM   #52
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries, underated ?

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Originally Posted by thistle1 View Post
I think Jefferies is underated, as is the case with many past fighters, even noteworthy greats like Jefferies. I remember reading about him years ago, and from what I can gather he was one of the hardest, toughest SOB's out there, no argument from me.

Tracy Callis the respected Boxing Historian places Jefferies quite high indeed (as do others), and I think he wrote a bio on him too. Jefferies I think was the goods and he's the kind of fighter you'd would want to see against, Marciano, Frazier, Forman & Tyson...

killer battles!
Do you know when Callis made his rankings? He places Jeffries number 1 on his list.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:01 AM   #53
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries, underated ?

I would argue the burden off being a revolutionary you put on Tunney would probably fit better on the crown of Corbett. And I am sure someone else that knows far more about the bare knuckle era than I do will suggest an earlier incarnation of the boxer as scientist.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:07 AM   #54
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries, underated ?

i think he was a little overrated in his day to 50 years or so after. he gets underrated by some modern viewers because he has a basic style, but you can still brawl to wins in 2012 anyway
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:08 AM   #55
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries, underated ?

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I would argue the burden off being a revolutionary you put on Tunney would probably fit better on the crown of Corbett. And I am sure someone else that knows far more about the bare knuckle era than I do will suggest an earlier incarnation of the boxer as scientist.
I would be inclined to agree with this.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:17 AM   #56
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries, underated ?

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Originally Posted by LittleRed View Post
I would argue the burden off being a revolutionary you put on Tunney would probably fit better on the crown of Corbett. And I am sure someone else that knows far more about the bare knuckle era than I do will suggest an earlier incarnation of the boxer as scientist.
James J. Corbett put the sweet science in boxing, there's no denying that. But he revolutionized boxing, itself. Not just one division.

The sport wouldn't be what it is today without Gentleman Jim, but Tunney still shifted the heavyweight division.

EDIT: I hope no one thinks I'm attempting to, in anyway, discredit Corbett. If the revolutionary credit must, solely, go to Corbett -- I'll sleep just fine.

Last edited by Aaron Contreras; 10-22-2012 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:27 AM   #57
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries, underated ?

I think so. I have him at #2 all time. My top 10:

1. Jack Dempsey

2. Jim Jeffries

3. Jim Sullivan

4. Vitali Klitschko

5. Wladimir Klitschko

6. Jim Corbett

7. Max Schmeling

8. Rocky Marciano

9. Ingemar Johanssen

10. Tommy Burns

I rate him number 14 p4p, ahead of Sven Ottke but behind Joe Calzaghe.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:50 AM   #58
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries, underated ?

How is Rocky marciano below Schmeling?
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:52 AM   #59
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries, underated ?

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How is Rocky marciano below Schmeling?
Joe Louis and Ali aren't even on his top-10. Just look past it.
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:28 PM   #60
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries, underated ?

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Originally Posted by The Kurgan View Post
I think so. I have him at #2 all time. My top 10:

1. Jack Dempsey

2. Jim Jeffries

3. Jim Sullivan

4. Vitali Klitschko

5. Wladimir Klitschko

6. Jim Corbett

7. Max Schmeling

8. Rocky Marciano

9. Ingemar Johanssen

10. Tommy Burns

I rate him number 14 p4p, ahead of Sven Ottke but behind Joe Calzaghe.
that's one hell of a white supremacist top 10
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