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Old 10-25-2012, 11:56 PM   #76
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Default Re: The Brawl in Montreal - who would defeat Duran on that night?

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you guys are asking who would defeat Duran on that night as though the Leonard of June 1980 was the Leonard who fought Hearns on Sept 16, 1981. Yet my whole points have been Ray was a better fighter when he learned a lesson from Duran in June of 1980. Sort of like having a thread. How would Julian Jackson who knocked out Terry Norris do if he fought the Mike McCallum who stopped him in 1986.
This thread is just two freaking weird for me.
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Old 10-26-2012, 04:26 AM   #77
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Default Re: The Brawl in Montreal - who would defeat Duran on that night?

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This thread is just two freaking weird for me.
it's simple really, Mag just confused matters.

which fighter from WW history could have fought in Ray's place that night and been favoured (probably using hindsight) to defeat Duran.
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Old 10-26-2012, 07:23 AM   #78
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Default Re: The Brawl in Montreal - who would defeat Duran on that night?

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it's simple really, Mag just confused matters.

which fighter from WW history could have fought in Ray's place that night and been favoured (probably using hindsight) to defeat Duran.
Honestly think Robinson could've gone about it any which way he wanted and still came out on top, including fighting the same way Leonard was determined to win going into it. For all his grace and boxing ability, Robinson wasn't afraid to get his hands dirty. I think the blunt trauma force (and the speed at which they were delivered) of his shots is his #1 asset as a fighter and that the 'Puncher' of the term boxer-puncher should come first in relation to generalizing what he was. Factoring in defensive capabilities, infighting and his absolute mastery of feints, I might even call Duran the more skilled man here, but Robinson's natural attributes are enough to carry the day against any fighter at 147, ever. On his best night, probably at 160 as well imo.
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:13 AM   #79
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Default Re: The Brawl in Montreal - who would defeat Duran on that night?

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Honestly think Robinson could've gone about it any which way he wanted and still came out on top, including fighting the same way Leonard was determined to win going into it. For all his grace and boxing ability, Robinson wasn't afraid to get his hands dirty. I think the blunt trauma force (and the speed at which they were delivered) of his shots is his #1 asset as a fighter and that the 'Puncher' of the term boxer-puncher should come first in relation to generalizing what he was. Factoring in defensive capabilities, infighting and his absolute mastery of feints, I might even call Duran the more skilled man here, but Robinson's natural attributes are enough to carry the day against any fighter at 147, ever. On his best night, probably at 160 as well imo.
I don't think anyone (having to weigh the same as Robinson) should ever be expected to win.
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Old 10-26-2012, 03:36 PM   #80
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Default Re: The Brawl in Montreal - who would defeat Duran on that night?

Robinson is the obvious pick, yeah. Take punishment on the way in, force an infight, and be unhappy when he makes room for his shots. Robinson at welterweight hits hard, picks punches well, and has a mean strike a mile long.
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Old 10-26-2012, 03:52 PM   #81
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Default Re: The Brawl in Montreal - who would defeat Duran on that night?

Robinson
Leonard of the rematch
Hearns
Benitez
Whitaker
Maybe Mayweather
Maybe Cory Spinks
Maybe Quartey
Maybe Galivan
Maybe Curry
Maybe Starling
Maybe Napoles
Maybe Rodriguez
Maybe Griffith

Those maybes some he'd be favourite for me, some not, he wouldn't beat them all though
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Old 10-26-2012, 05:00 PM   #82
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Default Re: The Brawl in Montreal - who would defeat Duran on that night?

He'd beat most on your list PP... Sans Robinson for sure. I guess I'm just not as convinced on the Hearns pick. As I stated... He tried to go toe to toe with Duran.. A bad bad idea for this beasts. If SRL can hurt Hearns... Duran certainly could and would. I disagree with Benitez as well agsints this version.
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Old 10-26-2012, 09:01 PM   #83
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Default Re: The Brawl in Montreal - who would defeat Duran on that night?

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He'd beat most on your list PP... Sans Robinson for sure. I guess I'm just not as convinced on the Hearns pick. As I stated... He tried to go toe to toe with Duran.. A bad bad idea for this beasts. If SRL can hurt Hearns... Duran certainly could and would. I disagree with Benitez as well agsints this version.
the problem with the scenario on Hearns is that Hearns was faster than Duran at welt and super welt . Also, SRL cannot really hurt Duran ,but Hearns can. As Hearns said onetime " I punch much harder than Hagler and Leonard. I knew if I hit Duran clean I could knock him out" He said it and he did it. That is not an insult on Roberto, but Hearns does anyone doubt Hearns punches harder than Hagler and Leonard or Benite? Duran could not get out of the way of his right hand at welt or at jr middleweight or at middleweight had they fought there. Hearns did try and go toe to toe with Duran at first and then settled down, and Duran did land a couple of nice right hands and some body punches, but he was always reaching and standing straight up. Hearns was too fast and had too much arm length.. Duran was being hit clean. Tommy didn't have to do much to land leveraged punches.
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:28 PM   #84
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Default Re: The Brawl in Montreal - who would defeat Duran on that night?

Just like Frazier was a total beast the first time he fought Ali, Duran that night was a fighting machine. I watched that fight live from local PPV and I still say it was one of the best, skillful boxing performances I have ever seen. I doubt many at welterweight could overcome Durans intensity, skill and conditioning that night. Arcel had trained Duran well for this fight even teaching him the Fitzsimmons shift which Duran used to good effect.
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:34 PM   #85
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Default Re: The Brawl in Montreal - who would defeat Duran on that night?

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Should be favoured:

Kid Gavilan. Styles.
Sugar Ray Robinson. Sugar.
Tommy Hearns. Physical equipment.
Mickey Walker. Too much monster.

Interesting Possibilities but no money down.:

Armstrong - near Duran's natural size which should give anyone pause based upon that performance, but Hank could also out-monster the monster. Duran was more skilled, but Armstrong is utterly unbreakable and it's possible that he would do more landing and swarming down the straight.

Emile Grifith: An uber-spoiler with elite strength might be just the ticket here. It's hard to see Griffith outlanding Duran in very many rounds but he holds some of the similar aces to Gavilan - negates the brawling portion of the Duran style the was so key here with physical attributes and technical delivery. Could certainly be out-worked generally and out-hit int he pocket, but Duran might not like what he gets.

Fritzie Zivic: Especially under his own ruleset, Zivic is only a slight underdog if at all. Duran's aggressive pursuit would open up numerous countering possibilities and the range opens the bag on the ultimate back-alley wizard's numerous store of tricks and fouls. Would lose under the ruleset that goverened the fight in Montreal I suppose.


Other possibilities: Felix Trinidad and Joe Walcott, though clearly inferior in terms of skill are packing the kind of dynamite that cost Duran so dearly versus Hearns. Although it should be pointed out that neither have that lazer-guided accuracy that served Tommy so well and that they would probably both get badly out-boxed, 15 rounds is a long time, especially against the Barbados Demon.
Lest we forget the "forgotten" Ted Kid Lewis who was a GREAT Welterweight with Greb-like stamina...Looks great on film also...
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Old 10-27-2012, 03:02 AM   #86
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Default Re: The Brawl in Montreal - who would defeat Duran on that night?

Robinson and Basilio come to mind. I don't say Hearns because he had not physically matured yet at 147.
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Old 10-27-2012, 04:48 AM   #87
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Default Re: The Brawl in Montreal - who would defeat Duran on that night?

So much wrestling and clinching in that fight. As much as alexander does
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Old 10-27-2012, 10:54 AM   #88
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Default Re: The Brawl in Montreal - who would defeat Duran on that night?

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Willie Pep lost more than he won against Saddler and is considered better. Ditto Greb and Tunney. Hell Hearns couldn't do anything with Barkeley but clearly the Hit man is the greater fighter. I assume you rate Bowe above Holyfield since he won 2 of the three fights.

And the difference between the brawl in Montreal and the Leonard-Hearns fight is that Ray adjusted during the fight. He beat Hearns the first go around by ad******g mid fight, something he did not, perhaps could not do vs Duran.
Pep was a bit past prime vs. the bigger Saddler.

I don't consider Greb better than Tunney and neither do a lot of people.

Hearns almost stopped Barkley prior to getting stopped in their first fight. The rematch was a SD win for Barkley that I felt Hearns should have won.

Bowe got away with a million low blows vs. Holyfield and never lost a point in their first fight. Also, the 11th round knockdown was B.S. (punched in the back of the head/top of neck... still really wasn't down). Figure in those few points and things could have been different (even if it wouldn't have seemd right to some). Holyfield schooled Bowe in their 2nd fight and may have went on to stop him had "Fan Man" not showed up. Holyfield had Bowe almost out in the 6th round of their 3rd fight but had nothing left and was stopped in the 8th (Bowe hadn't really done much to Holyfield for him to be that spent... no way Holyfield was 100%).

Leonard got even better after his fight with Duran. He fought a certain way and did not change his fight plan, he should have... it's not that he couldn't have. No big deal, he lost, but it was close. He schooled Duran in the next 2... could Duran have fought better? Yes... but IMO it wouldn't have mattered. This is why I consider Leonard that better fighter overall... not just because he went 2-1 (1) vs. Duran.
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Old 10-27-2012, 12:57 PM   #89
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Default Re: The Brawl in Montreal - who would defeat Duran on that night?

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Pep was a bit past prime vs. the bigger Saddler.

I don't consider Greb better than Tunney and neither do a lot of people.

Hearns almost stopped Barkley prior to getting stopped in their first fight. The rematch was a SD win for Barkley that I felt Hearns should have won.

Bowe got away with a million low blows vs. Holyfield and never lost a point in their first fight. Also, the 11th round knockdown was B.S. (punched in the back of the head/top of neck... still really wasn't down). Figure in those few points and things could have been different (even if it wouldn't have seemd right to some). Holyfield schooled Bowe in their 2nd fight and may have went on to stop him had "Fan Man" not showed up. Holyfield had Bowe almost out in the 6th round of their 3rd fight but had nothing left and was stopped in the 8th (Bowe hadn't really done much to Holyfield for him to be that spent... no way Holyfield was 100%).

Leonard got even better after his fight with Duran. He fought a certain way and did not change his fight plan, he should have... it's not that he couldn't have. No big deal, he lost, but it was close. He schooled Duran in the next 2... could Duran have fought better? Yes... but IMO it wouldn't have mattered. This is why I consider Leonard that better fighter overall... not just because he went 2-1 (1) vs. Duran.
I disagree with every word here
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Old 10-27-2012, 05:53 PM   #90
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Default Re: The Brawl in Montreal - who would defeat Duran on that night?

One things for sure, its not Leonard
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