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Old 10-28-2012, 11:59 AM   #31
SuzieQ49
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Default Re: Archie Moore Quotes on the Marciano fight

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Funny how you quote as if you have undisputed facts ... Moore's age remains hugely open to debate ... very, very few non-nuthuggers claim with any degree of certainty he was 38 ...
I think Moore was pretty close to his best in 1955, riding a 45 fight winning streak! He was certainly a better fighter in 1955 than he was in 1945.

Moore was born in 1916 according to the census, so deal with it. Moore was 38 when he fought Rocky.


If you want me to pinpoint Moore's absolute prime? I would say 1952 age 35. Like bernard Hopkins, Moore aged like fine wine.
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Old 10-28-2012, 01:37 PM   #32
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Default Re: Archie Moore Quotes on the Marciano fight

You dont know if Moore was born 1916 and nobody would never know his birth date but most people believe that he was born 1913.
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:25 PM   #33
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Default Re: Archie Moore Quotes on the Marciano fight

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You dont know if Moore was born 1916 and nobody would never know his birth date but most people believe that he was born 1913.
...............Except the ones who say he was born in 1920 or so and was about 38
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Old 10-28-2012, 04:50 PM   #34
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Default Re: Archie Moore Quotes on the Marciano fight

Joe,

Moore was born in 1916. It's proven via 1920 census. Deal with it. Moore was 38 when he fought Marciano and riding a 45-1 record in his last 46 fights.
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:14 PM   #35
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Default Re: Archie Moore Quotes on the Marciano fight

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Joe,

Moore was born in 1916. It's proven via 1920 census. Deal with it. Moore was 38 when he fought Marciano and riding a 45-1 record in his last 46 fights.
Funny how we are establishing bragging rights over Marciano knocking out a "38" year old light heavyweight ...
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Old 10-28-2012, 06:45 PM   #36
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Default Re: Archie Moore Quotes on the Marciano fight

Thats a little unfair to both Marciano and Moore. Its not like Moore was some 38 year old bum. He was one of the greatest fighters bar none to ever lace a glove (and still was at 38 ) and one of the greatest punchers to ever live.

Marciano gets a lot of flak for not fighting Valdez, a huge young heavyweight, yet Moore fought him twice before Marciano and beat him both times.

Marciano wasnt exactly a giant heavyweight either. It was a fair fight against a guy who could probably have beaten most if not all of the top heavyweights below Marciano at the time.

I think it was a great win for Marciano and a great performance.
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:28 PM   #37
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Default Re: Archie Moore Quotes on the Marciano fight

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Funny how we are establishing bragging rights over Marciano knocking out a "38" year old light heavyweight ...
A 38 year old HW who was one of the best boxer we've seen. An ATG in every sense of the word.
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:46 PM   #38
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Default Re: Archie Moore Quotes on the Marciano fight

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Funny how we are establishing bragging rights over Marciano knocking out a "38" year old light heavyweight ...
Some facts about that 38 year old light-heavyweight

1. He was the Ring Magazine # 1 heavyweight contender in 1955

2. He was 45-1 in his last 46 fights

3. His record at heavyweight since moving up was 27-0 going into the Marciano fight

These numbers are phenomenal, enough for you to admit this is a very impressive opponent for any heavyweight champion to fight.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:20 PM   #39
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Default Re: Archie Moore Quotes on the Marciano fight

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A 38 year old HW who was one of the best boxer we've seen. An ATG in every sense of the word.
How many have Moore in their all time top ten heavyweights ?
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:12 PM   #40
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Default Re: Archie Moore Quotes on the Marciano fight

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How many have Moore in their all time top ten heavyweights ?

What does that have to do with anything?


How many have Billy Conn, Georges Carpentier, Tom Sharkey, Jack O'Brien, Charlie Mitchell, Tommy Gibbons, or Michael Spinks as top ten heavyweights?

Those were all notable title defenses by heavyweight champions. All of them were light heavyweights at best.

How many of your top ten all time great heavyweights fought each other?

Being that there are only ten top ten all time heavyweights that leaves a very small window for them to face each and makes a pretty weak argument against impressive performances or defenses.

One could realistically have a top ten heavyweight list that looked like this. in no particular order:

Sullivan
Johnson
Dempsey
Louis
Tyson
Ali
Frazier
Holyfield
Marciano
Foreman

Of that list there only a handful of possible combinations:

Louis-Marciano
Tyson-Holyfield
Foreman-Ali
Foreman-Frazier
Ali-Frazier
Foreman-Tyson (if we include his second run, which is the exception not the rule)
Foreman-Holyfield (ditto)

You could argue Dempsey-Johnson but thats another fanciful matchup which in my opinion excludes it, much like Foreman-Tyson and Holyfield should be excluded.

That leaves a pretty thin list of fights by your criteria for judging worthy defenses. It also leaves out a lot of fighters and challengers that were very good to all time great.

I think this is pretty unfair to Marciano and Moore.
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:35 PM   #41
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Default Re: Archie Moore Quotes on the Marciano fight

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How many have Moore in their all time top ten heavyweights ?
I have him in my top 30 all time
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:12 PM   #42
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Default Re: Archie Moore Quotes on the Marciano fight

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Funny how we are establishing bragging rights over Marciano knocking out a "38" year old light heavyweight ...
A dangerously skilled and All Time KO King (most KO's) man who was on a 50 fight win streak marred by a DQ and a controversial loss that he avenged by KO over Harold Johnson. Moore also KO'd #1 heavyweight contender Bob Baker and beat Nino Valdes 2x plus many of feared heavyweights of the decade....This type of fighter (Archie Moore) does not exist these days...It was not as if Moore was fighting his 1st Heavyweight as was the case of Michael Spinks when he beat Holmes in fight 1 .....Moore was number 1 contender and light heavyweight champ but his resume was fresh and he was in his heavyweight prime leading to the Marciano fight.....Moore did take a brutal beating from Marciano but most felt Moore was a dangerous puncher,skilled fighter and experienced ringmaster and most deserving of a title shot at the age of 38
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Old 10-29-2012, 04:10 PM   #43
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Default Re: Archie Moore Quotes on the Marciano fight

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Old 10-29-2012, 04:11 PM   #44
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Default Re: Archie Moore Quotes on the Marciano fight

Moore on heavyweights:

"You're fightin' heavyweights, don't forget you're hittin' a stationary target. The fellas I fought, you can't hardly hit 'em. Some of 'em you can't hardly hit with a handful of rice—fellas like Holman Williams, like the Cocoa Kid—'less you plan your punches.

"Fight heavyweights, I don't have any trouble hittin' 'em. Take Bob Baker. They say he was to be one of the best young heavyweights—boxin' style. Time I got through with him he was a bloated bloody mess. I didn't have no trouble hittin' Nino Valdes and I weighed 196 then. Marciano isn't goin' to be any trouble for me.... Course, all the time you got to exercise a certain amount of caution you're in there with a puncher like that."
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Old 10-29-2012, 04:17 PM   #45
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Default Re: Archie Moore Quotes on the Marciano fight

Moore on the manly art:

"There are things I just know now. They're part of me. You'd be amazed the number of champions don't know the fundamentals of boxing. I mean the ABCs of boxing. Don't print that I said they're stupid, you understand. But there's champions don't even know the fundamentals. It's a no wonder so many of 'em can't fight when they don't know how to move. Can't stand, can't even stand up in the ring, can't even walk around.

"Take the hook, jab, uppercut, cross. They're the basic punches. Everything else come out of that.

"The left cross, it's a different punch. Not many of them throw it. They don't know it exists. Anybody tell you they no such thing as a left cross, you tell them they're a liar. Why isn't there such a thing as a left cross? There's a right cross, and you got two hands. Anything you do with your right hand you can do with your left hand. It's a good punch, say you're trapped in a corner. Like this."

Moore leaned back against his cottage's screen-door jamb and let his head fall, his eyes going down past his left hand, which was lying flat along the left center of his chest, palm in, the left forearm slanting down along the chest. He carried his right arm crooked and low. He shot the left hand, fingers open and extended, diagonally up across his chest and straight out, past and ahead of the right shoulder.

"Anybody can throw a shot-put can make a cross. Same motion."

"You mean you kind of push it?"

"No, it's not a push. It's a snap. You got to snap."

Moore believes the left jab is the fighter's best punch.

"What I mean, from the jab you set up everything else. Just suppose I was fightin' Marciano. Just suppose I was fightin' him and I was a little bit afraid of what he might do to me. I'd use that jab—stiff jabs. I mean he might want to throw punches in over my jab, but I don't believe he can do it. One thing, my arms longer than his. Then my jab is so hard and fast that his head would be goin' back, back, back, back. What I mean, besides while I was pilin' up points the jab can be a very damaging weapon, a very cutting weapon.


"You can use the jab to set a man up for what you want to do. You don't just move the head where you want it. You knock it. You knock it where you want it."

Does the jab's power come from a push off the right foot?

"No, left foot. Left foot. Left foot and the shoulder."

(Archie meant that by taking a quick short step with the left foot he builds up the weight momentum he needs to give the jab real power, adds more bulk momentum by quickly extending the left shoulder forward.)

"The left foot is the key to balance. In boxing the left foot is the key. The right foot is the rudder."

Moore regards the jab as both a defensive and offensive weapon.

"Some people carry their hands high. Me, I carry my hands low but I get that jab up there, and with force all the same."

Could the jab be used in the same corner defensive situation as the left cross?

"No, the position back there isn't a good one for jabs. I mean you're movin'. Your main thought, your main thinkin' is escape. Of course, you might could use a couple of good jabs to help you out of there and start again. But once you's out you got to start all over again. Left cross is a good punch there because you use it at a time when it isn't hardly possible to throw a punch.

"Position is everything. In boxin' position is everything—how you have your body set."


Moore said he never, "but never" throws a punch unless everything is right for the punch—unless his legs and hands are where he wants them and his body balance is correct.

He demonstrated the importance of body balance by having the SI man stand up.

"What make you think you're on balance? You on balance?" He pushed gently with two fingers and the SI man sat down.

Then Moore stood in the fighter's "natural position"—left foot forward and in a slight crouch.

The SI man pushed him hard but nothing happened. The SI man tried the "natural position." Moore pushed and again nothing happened.

Moore has the rare ability to start the jab and then, using the same body momentum, crook the arm and convert the jab into a good left hook. It is done in one motion. He calls this "hooking off a jab." Tony Zale was a master at it and Moore regards himself as tops at it too. Joe Louis, he says, never did it.

" Louis would go jab, jab, drop his arms. Jab, jab, drop his arms. Then, if he wanted to make a hook, he'd do it all by itself, real quick. Wasn't the same thing."

The "hook off the jab" and the "left cross" are two Moore trade-marks which set him off from most fighters.

Moore on escapology:

"I try to build a bridge. With each punch I try to build a bridge so I can escape over it if something goes wrong. That's what you call escapology. That's what I call escapology."




Moore on combinations:

"I would say a combination was a succession of successes. You don't throw 'em unless you got your man hurt. 'Less you've first lured him out of position and hurt him, then you go to work with your combinations.



"Simplest one is a 1-2. Left and right to the head.

"I won't tell you the numbers to my combinations. Those are my secrets."

Moore's system of cataloguing the combinations he uses is all his own. He has a number for each punch in a series but the same punch delivered twice in a row in a combination will, by Archie's mystical method, have a different number on its second delivery. He was asked, for instance, the number of the combination that put Bobo Olson away; two rights to the head climaxed by a left hook that turned into an uppercut at the last instant.

"That was a 4-6-9."

Thus he numbered the first right 4 and the second 6.

He was asked to number Zale's favorite combination: a right-left to the body followed immediately by a left to the head. He refused. Even Cheerful Norman, Archie's trainer, does not know Archie's system of cataloguing combinations. To an outsider this may seem to be a secret of no particular importance, but to Archie it is precious.

"You may be in the middle of a combination. You may be goin' to work, all of a sudden you say to yourself, 'Oh-oh. This ain't workin'. This ain't the right one.' You stop right there, start all over again. Maybe after you throw the first punch of a combination you see it ain't goin' right. You miss. That's where the escapology comes in again. Even while you're throwin' a combination you build your bridges so you can escape over them if things go wrong."

(Lay translation: even though a combination of punches is a unit in itself, every punch within the unit carries with it its own avenue of escape. If, for example, the second hook in a series is missed or is blocked, the opponent then is likely to be in an offensive position. At best, the offensive balance and rhythm of the combination-thrower has been upset and to throw the next punch while out of balance or rhythm could be disastrous.)

Moore on rhythm:

"Everything in boxing is rhythm. Look at Joe Walcott. Walcott made the unforgivable error, a man had been in the ring as long as he has. He come out in the first round, he thought Marciano would be burnin' leather. Marciano not such a fast starter. They come out like this [bending and looking up]. Walcott just hit him in the mouth. Hit him in the face [accompanied by the motion of a short left hook. Marciano was knocked down at this point for the first time in his career].


" Walcott, you could see his chest swell five inches. He just turned around and walked away. He turned his back. That's where he lost his man right there.

"Man been in the ring long as Walcott and me, he knows where the ropes is. He knows where the corner is. He don't have to turn around. Walcott turned his back, then went over to the ropes thinkin' he just wait for the man to count him out. He swung around again. [Moore spread his arms in the posture of a man resting outstretched arms on the top strand of the ring ropes, then jumped to indicate surprise.] Man was on his feet. Marciano didn't take a count. Got right up.

" Walcott should have been backin' up this way. [Moore did a kind of crab-wise retreat, dropping the right foot back, then sliding the left foot back, always on balance and eyes always on the imaginary spot where Marciano had fallen.] Backin' up. Backin' up. He should have been countin' the number of steps to his corner and countin' the exact number of steps it would take to get back to the man. And he should have been thinkin' about what punch he was goin' to hit him with when he got up. But he looked, jumped. He lost his rhythm right there. He was out of the rhythm of his fight."

Did he mean that there was both a fast and slow rhythm to a fighter's battle—the fast rhythm of punching and the slow rhythm of the overall battle plan?

"Yeah. He lost his rhythm, lost a half step gettin' back to his man, and that cost him the fight. First punch he threw missed by that much. That extra half step."

He showed with a tiny measurement of left thumb and forefinger the distance by which the punch missed, then measured a half step with his hands and showed that the distance of the half step could have brought the punch down from a fraction over Marciano's head to the exact area of Rocky's chin
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