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Old 10-27-2012, 09:07 AM   #1
bowerboy
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Default Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

When you look at head to head comparisons of old fighters vs new fighters I think what you are really saying is "if that fighter was born 40 years later" then how would he stack up against such and such a fighter from todays era.

Boxing techniques, athleticism, footwork and speed have changed so much since the turn of the 1900's that you simply cant compare a fighter from the 1920's to a fighter from today. Even one of todays mediocre heavyweights would make light work of some one like Jack Dempsey.

This is not meant to be inflammatory but is just seeking clarification. Its exactly the same thing as saying Jesse Owns the sprinter would beat Usain Bolt...He just wouldnt which is clearly proven by improved times which have come about by better techniques and athletic science etc.

I think you can compare fighters head to head from the 1960's onwards as not much has changed since then.

I will put my neck out and say if you even took a Joe Louis or a Rocky Marciano direct out of their era and put them in with even a mediocre fighter from today then they would get soundly beaten. If you took the fighting heart and spirit of those guys and trained them with todays standards then of course you have a real head to head comparison in which they would clearly destroy todays fighters.

I think the same applies through all weight classes and not just the heavyweights. You watch the old fight tapes from the 1930's, 1940's and so on and some of the fighting styles seem almost laughable...Jack Dempsey repeatedly back hands Luis Firpo for example...and all fight from a stooped over fighting position that just wouldnt work in todays era.

Just wondered if any one agrees with the above or sees it differently.
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Old 10-27-2012, 09:27 AM   #2
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

Most people seem to base their predictions on the assumption that a time machine is used. I have never agreed with the argument that boxing has evolved along the same lines as track sports, but I have to acknowledge that these fantasy fights are frought with problems. For one thing, we are effectivley making the fighters weigh in under different rulesets.
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Old 10-27-2012, 10:11 AM   #3
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

No. I wonder how today's fighters would deal with getting hit with 4oz gloves, fighting 15 rounds and taking on the best consistently.

Nobody is punching Usain Bolt in the face.

Tony Canzoneri. 'Nuff said. But still, today's fighters could do with learning some technique themselves.

What is your cut off point? What about the great fighters of the 30s,40s,50s,60s,70s,80s?

Quite a few of today's 'top fighters' might well have been fringe contenders in era's gone by. I'm thinking a lot of the lower weight guys for sure.

How would Henry Armstrong's fighting prowess not work today? How would Joe Louis not waste all the cruiserweights of today (that's where he'd be fighting for most of his career probably)

The OP is just baiting. Loads of bollocks not backed up with 'just seeing if anyone agrees' or whatnot at the end. Knows what he's doing. Same thing we see all the f'n time.
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Old 10-27-2012, 10:23 AM   #4
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

Quote:
Originally Posted by bowerboy View Post
When you look at head to head comparisons of old fighters vs new fighters I think what you are really saying is "if that fighter was born 40 years later" then how would he stack up against such and such a fighter from todays era.

Boxing techniques, athleticism, footwork and speed have changed so much since the turn of the 1900's that you simply cant compare a fighter from the 1920's to a fighter from today. Even one of todays mediocre heavyweights would make light work of some one like Jack Dempsey.

This is not meant to be inflammatory but is just seeking clarification. Its exactly the same thing as saying Jesse Owns the sprinter would beat Usain Bolt...He just wouldnt which is clearly proven by improved times which have come about by better techniques and athletic science etc.

I think you can compare fighters head to head from the 1960's onwards as not much has changed since then.

I will put my neck out and say if you even took a Joe Louis or a Rocky Marciano direct out of their era and put them in with even a mediocre fighter from today then they would get soundly beaten. If you took the fighting heart and spirit of those guys and trained them with todays standards then of course you have a real head to head comparison in which they would clearly destroy todays fighters.

I think the same applies through all weight classes and not just the heavyweights. You watch the old fight tapes from the 1930's, 1940's and so on and some of the fighting styles seem almost laughable...Jack Dempsey repeatedly back hands Luis Firpo for example...and all fight from a stooped over fighting position that just wouldnt work in todays era.

Just wondered if any one agrees with the above or sees it differently.

Actually, no..........it's nothing like that at all.

Like all of them in the General Forum, you're assuming that these awesomely wonderful advancements in nutrition (whatever the hell that means) and "advanced training techniques" must then by definition yield the exact same advancements on the playing field, and at the same rate as track and field, or basketball, etc...........

Why do people think that, or assume there is THAT similar a line drawn in application of the advantages these athletes supposedly have? Having the tools there doesn't mean people use them, and in the case of boxing, they simply haven't. In other sports, yeah, absolutely. Boxing, no.........not in the least. You have to have trainers that know what the hell they're doing, and they are not there. Tell me, when was the last time you saw a fighter feint really well? With all these precious advancements in science blah blah blah, why is it then that so many fighters are so gassed at the end of 10 or 12 rounds? Don't tell me they fight at a faster pace, I've seen 'em. I thought they were supposed to be so "advanced"...............well, show me. There is no evidence whatsoever that boxing is doing anything but slipping. In no way, shape, or form is it advancing.
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Old 10-27-2012, 10:32 AM   #5
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

....here we go again
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Old 10-27-2012, 10:47 AM   #6
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

Its not training techniques, its the actual fighting style that has changed....the style or techniques required to win has evolved...fighters were much slower back in the 20's, 30's and 40's and my own opinion is that the 1960's are a good cut off point where styles peaked into what they are today.

Granted it may just be the grainy old footage that makes them all look slow, ponderous and cumbersome with an awkward style..

Its not just track and field either..look at soccer and how much that has changed and the list goes on...

Don't get me wrong, I love the boxing of old and absolutely acknowledge that back in the day the best had to fight the best and I really dont like what boxing has become...but never the less, comparing old fight footage compared to new fight footage you cannot help but see the difference..

Joe was so slow compared to todays fighters (again recognising that the grainy old footage could play a big part in that impression).
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Old 10-27-2012, 10:52 AM   #7
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

Louis was insufferably quick fisted and fought with near perfect technique so I don't know where that's coming from. And honestly what seperates boxing from other sports is weight classes which impose artificial limits on fighters. Anyway what you are right is that stylistically boxing has changed.
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Old 10-27-2012, 10:55 AM   #8
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

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Originally Posted by LittleRed View Post
Louis was insufferably quick fisted and fought with near perfect technique so I don't know where that's coming from. And honestly what seperates boxing from other sports is weight classes which impose artificial limits on fighters. Anyway what you are right is that stylistically boxing has changed.
Perfect technique for the day...
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Old 10-27-2012, 10:57 AM   #9
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

errr... Joe Louis was not slow compared to today's fighters. He was lightning fast in delivering combinations by today's or any day's standards. So was Dempsey and Tunney and Sharkey and Walcott... etc. I think any reasonable boxing trainer will agree.
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Old 10-27-2012, 10:58 AM   #10
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

Oh, and by the way, care to explain how humans were able to lower the 100 meters world record by .02 of a second over 18 years, and then lower it .35 seconds over the next 18?

Must be that great nutrition everyone talks about.
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Old 10-27-2012, 11:04 AM   #11
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

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Originally Posted by bowerboy View Post
Perfect technique for the day...
No, still incredible now. For the most part punching technique has regressed.
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Old 10-27-2012, 11:07 AM   #12
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
errr... Joe Louis was not slow compared to today's fighters. He was lightning fast in delivering combinations by today's or any day's standards. So was Dempsey and Tunney and Sharkey and Walcott... etc. I think any reasonable boxing trainer will agree.
Seamus when you say they were lightning fast then based on what? You only have fight film and boxing writers to go by...boxing writers of the time didnt see today's fighters as a frame of reference...and FOR SURE they do not appear fast in the old footage.

Google Dempsey vs Firpo and watch Dempsey with his hands by his waist throwing haymakers and back hand slapping Firpo numerous times...
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Old 10-27-2012, 11:14 AM   #13
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

Sigh. The guys a 'tard with an agenda. Nutting' to see here.
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Old 10-27-2012, 11:31 AM   #14
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Sigh. The guys a 'tard with an agenda. Nutting' to see here.
What agenda?
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Old 10-27-2012, 11:37 AM   #15
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

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Google Dempsey vs Firpo and watch Dempsey with his hands by his waist throwing haymakers and back hand slapping Firpo numerous times...
As I have stated many times before, Dempsey is a fighter who has shown both great and awful technique. Then again, we have limited film of him, and almost none of his rise to the title, his peak form of 1918-1920.

Guys like Sharkey and Schmeling look good on film both with speed and form. Tunney looks almost perfect. Louis looks otherworldly.

It's not as though the species has evolved over the past 4 or 5 generations. The same speed, strength and endurance are there. What has evolved are the rules, the gloves, the weigh ins, the length of fights, the emphasis in training, the level of experience fighters bring to the ring.... For guys like Harry Greb, Ray Robinson and Archie Moore, boxing was something they competed in every month, if not every week. It was not something to be trained for over the course of 6 months for a single encounter.
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