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Old 10-27-2012, 09:33 PM   #16
bowerboy
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
For guys like Harry Greb, Ray Robinson and Archie Moore, boxing was something they competed in every month, if not every week. It was not something to be trained for over the course of 6 months for a single encounter.
Actually that is an EXCELLENT point and may well contain the answer...fighting experience and how often they fought would be a huge factor.
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Old 10-27-2012, 11:51 PM   #17
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

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....here we go again
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:49 AM   #18
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

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Actually that is an EXCELLENT point and may well contain the answer...fighting experience and how often they fought would be a huge factor.
a huge factor deciding what ? their inferiority ?

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Old 10-28-2012, 12:50 AM   #19
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

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When you look at head to head comparisons of old fighters vs new fighters I think what you are really saying is "if that fighter was born 40 years later" then how would he stack up against such and such a fighter from todays era.

Boxing techniques, athleticism, footwork and speed have changed so much since the turn of the 1900's that you simply cant compare a fighter from the 1920's to a fighter from today. Even one of todays mediocre heavyweights would make light work of some one like Jack Dempsey.

This is not meant to be inflammatory but is just seeking clarification. Its exactly the same thing as saying Jesse Owns the sprinter would beat Usain Bolt...He just wouldnt which is clearly proven by improved times which have come about by better techniques and athletic science etc.

I think you can compare fighters head to head from the 1960's onwards as not much has changed since then.

I will put my neck out and say if you even took a Joe Louis or a Rocky Marciano direct out of their era and put them in with even a mediocre fighter from today then they would get soundly beaten. If you took the fighting heart and spirit of those guys and trained them with todays standards then of course you have a real head to head comparison in which they would clearly destroy todays fighters.

I think the same applies through all weight classes and not just the heavyweights. You watch the old fight tapes from the 1930's, 1940's and so on and some of the fighting styles seem almost laughable...Jack Dempsey repeatedly back hands Luis Firpo for example...and all fight from a stooped over fighting position that just wouldnt work in todays era.

Just wondered if any one agrees with the above or sees it differently.
I believe the exact opposite.
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:59 AM   #20
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

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Sigh. The guys a 'tard with an agenda. Nutting' to see here.
FM, he's right. There is regression today from some of the new posters...
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Old 10-28-2012, 01:55 AM   #21
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

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FM, he's right. There is regression today from some of the new posters...
I beg to differ...with modern nutrition and advanced technology the new posters must be superior to those who have been around for a while....I am excited that he has come to teach us the error of our ways..after all hes probably 15 y/o or so and likely knows more about boxing than most of us can even aspire to....he has already made some original and well reasoned posts!
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:35 AM   #22
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

I never mentioned anything about nutrition.

It is this very simple fact:

Style A was prevalent in the 20's and 30's until people worked out that by switching to style B you could consistently beat style A...so style B then prevails for a time until people realise that with some modifcations style C will always beat style B...so of course the game of boxing evolves and matures and everyone has to fight to the new style otherwise they dont keep up and are stylistically ound to lose...it is a natural evolution of the sport (or any sport).

So dont worry classic afficionados, I am not saying Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano or Harry Greb or Battling Nelson or any on those guys are any less a legend than they are...but what I am definitely saying is that in a "time machine" head to head comparison those guys are destined to lose stylistically.

It was really the question I was asking....surely when you think head to head you are must be thinking of that old time fighter in todays world?? Surely you need to "adjust for inflation" as it were??

As I said I believe styles can only evolve so far and that styles pretty much leveled out in the late 1960's...I mean just look at Clay/Liston?? That was a passing of the torch from old style to new style and Clay was absolutely all over him in the first fight.

I am 42 and grew up on a diet of Hagler, Hearns, Sanchez, Duran, Holmes, Whittaker and the rest and yearn for those days again..when top guys fought top guys.

The fighting once a month argument could equally go both ways..loads more experience and more battle hardened but would take its toll...obviously the other extreme of fighting once a year is no good either.
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Old 10-28-2012, 06:17 AM   #23
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

Ali to Liston was the changing of the guard in terms of styles

Oh, my, just **** off. Your idiocy hurts to comprehend.
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Old 10-28-2012, 06:37 AM   #24
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

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Ali to Liston was the changing of the guard in terms of styles

Oh, my, just **** off. Your idiocy hurts to comprehend.
How so??
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Old 10-28-2012, 06:39 AM   #25
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

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Ali to Liston was the changing of the guard in terms of styles

Oh, my, just **** off. Your idiocy hurts to comprehend.
Clay you fool
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Old 10-28-2012, 06:45 AM   #26
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowerboy View Post
I never mentioned anything about nutrition.

It is this very simple fact:

Style A was prevalent in the 20's and 30's until people worked out that by switching to style B you could consistently beat style A...so style B then prevails for a time until people realise that with some modifcations style C will always beat style B...so of course the game of boxing evolves and matures and everyone has to fight to the new style otherwise they dont keep up and are stylistically ound to lose...it is a natural evolution of the sport (or any sport).
I just don't buy it.

For example if all that a fighter in the late 1800s had to do to dominate was adopt a higher guard, then somebody would have thought of it.

Styles change because the rules themselves change, thus making the previous style inapropriate.

Quote:
So dont worry classic afficionados, I am not saying Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano or Harry Greb or Battling Nelson or any on those guys are any less a legend than they are...but what I am definitely saying is that in a "time machine" head to head comparison those guys are destined to lose stylistically.
Again, I just don't see it.

Even if you think that Wladamir Klitschko could beat Joe Louis head to head, how would you even begin to find a cruiserweight who could beat him today?

Quote:
It was really the question I was asking....surely when you think head to head you are must be thinking of that old time fighter in todays world?? Surely you need to "adjust for inflation" as it were??

As I said I believe styles can only evolve so far and that styles pretty much leveled out in the late 1960's...I mean just look at Clay/Liston?? That was a passing of the torch from old style to new style and Clay was absolutely all over him in the first fight.
I can assure you that Liston was a lot better than Clay from a technical standpoint. 99.9% of the fighters that have ever lived would have got killed using Clay's style, which is why nobody else has ever realy used it. He got away with it due to his ungodly reflexes, which itself undermines your argument that evolution of technique would leve the old timers high and dry.

Even if I believed in the "evolution of technique argument", I could not identify anything that had changed significantly since the 40s.
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:01 AM   #27
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

[quote=janitor;14087314]
Quote:
I can assure you that Liston was a lot better than Clay from a technical standpoint. .
Clay absolutely dominated Liston in that fight...how was Liston technically better??

Jab Jab, right...jab jab right...jab jab..right...shuffle forwards..jab jab right..

EXACTLY what I am talking about...Liston WAS technically superior when that style still worked..when it stopped working he was no longer technically better..
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:22 AM   #28
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowerboy View Post
Clay absolutely dominated Liston in that fight...how was Liston technically better??
Liston was technicaly better in prety much any department you can name, but Clay was faster.

That rather undermines your central argument.

Quote:
EXACTLY what I am talking about...Liston WAS technically superior when that style still worked..when it stopped working he was no longer technically better..
If you look at todays heavyweight division, you will see a lot of fighters like Liston and nobody remotely like Ali.
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:43 AM   #29
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

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Most people seem to base their predictions on the assumption that a time machine is used. I have never agreed with the argument that boxing has evolved along the same lines as track sports, but I have to acknowledge that these fantasy fights are frought with problems. For one thing, we are effectivley making the fighters weigh in under different rulesets.
With heavyweight fights I don't think it's as big a problem. Still, certain ground rules should be laid down at the start of any fantasy fight and adhered by to all participants at all times:

- the glove size used by both men

- the number of rounds

- the type of referee used

- neutral corner or no neutral corner rule (only applicable to fights involving at least one pre-1920s fighter)

and so on.

All of these things should then be factored into the debate. If Tua knocked down Dempsey under old school rules, for example, then it's very unlikely that Dempsey would be able to weather that storm as he'd never be given an opportunity to. If a great inside fighter is fighting Wlad under modern rules, then would he be able to work without getting clinched up or broken by the ref? All of these things may seem minor, but they could have a massive effect on the outcome of the fight.
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:47 AM   #30
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Default Re: Head To Head Comaprisons - Please Clarify

Janitor is smashing this guy

This is horrific.
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