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Old 10-28-2012, 08:43 PM   #31
Bummy Davis
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Default Re: Joe Louis beat the previous 5 heavyweight champions in first 4 years as a pro

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Originally Posted by Colonel Sanders View Post
[COLOR="rgb(0, 100, 0)"]Thomas had a great left hand AND a respectable right hand. Just watching the excellent right uppercutts and right crosses he landed on Tillis is enough to see he was not the left handed fighter you say he was. Anyway, he was known back then for having a good right hand.[/color]


Tyson didn't show shit. Tyson had a habit of trashing good fighters.

Carl Williams arguably beat Holmes. ----- Tyson KO1
Tubbs beat Page and went the distance with Spoon. ----- Tyson KO1
Berbick beat Tate, Page, Bey, Thomas ----- Tyson TKO2

Thomas was another converted southpaw so while he had a right hand like Frazier and Cooney his major power came from the left...Thomas was solid as far a whiskers and great powerful jab and hook but he started using heroin again before the Berbick fight and you could see the difference....Tyson came in to KO and Louis would do the same in brilliant fashion
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Old 10-28-2012, 09:01 PM   #32
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Default Re: Joe Louis beat the previous 5 heavyweight champions in first 4 years as a pro

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Berbick was a pretty good fighter that could have cracked that top 10 in the thirties.. Perhaps even beaten guys like Braddock and Carnera. He beat prime versions of Page, Thomas and took a peak Holmes 15 rounds.. The man was no slouch.

Like I said when he beat Thomas, Pinklon was back on the heroin and I think you could see the contrast from previous fights and subsequent fights....the problem with Page, Tubbs and Witherspoon is that they sometimes did not train at all and gave us some of the worst lean fests in history and when you caught them in shape they were good....I think Thomas prior to the backslide to heroin was a well conditioned guy and could have lasted longer on top had he not....As far as Berbick, like a poor mans Norton he could give certain guys a good fight but IMO would get blown out like he did vs Tyson and Mercado by Louis and some of the better men of the era, especially the punchers
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:23 AM   #33
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Default Re: Joe Louis beat the previous 5 heavyweight champions in first 4 years as a pro

Tyson beat Lineal HW Champs Holmes and M. Spinks. He lost to Lineal HW Champs Douglas, Holyfield x2, and Lewis.

Sure, he beat World Titlist like-

Berbick KO2, Smith W12, Thomas KO6, Tucker W12, Tubbs KO2, and Bruno KO5 as well.

Post prison he beat-

Bruno KO3, Seldon KO1, and Botha KO5

He fought Orlin Norris as well, NC1

Add it all up... 11-4 (7) 1NC He was stopped in 3 of the losses.
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Old 10-29-2012, 04:12 PM   #34
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Default Re: Joe Louis beat the previous 5 heavyweight champions in first 4 years as a pro

Tyson beat berbick, smith, tucker, Holmes and Spinks.

I don't care whether its lineal or not, sure that's ideal but for the last 30 years it's not been representative. Just like boxings early days of fractured claimants, when unification doesn't happen you just pick the best of the bunch.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:42 PM   #35
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Default Re: Joe Louis beat the previous 5 heavyweight champions in first 4 years as a pro

While I think Louis has one of the very best records of any champion,

the beating of five champions doesn't impress me quite as much as it does some of you.

There were five champions because none sustained himself at the top.

If Louis had come along ten years earlier, in the mid-twenties rather than the mid-thirties, he could have only fought two champions, Dempsey and Tunney.

But beating Dempsey and Tunney would have been more impressive than beating Carnera, Baer, Sharkey, Braddock, and Schmeling.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:53 PM   #36
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Default Re: Joe Louis beat the previous 5 heavyweight champions in first 4 years as a pro

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But beating Dempsey and Tunney would have been more impressive than beating Carnera, Baer, Sharkey, Braddock, and Schmeling.
Would it have been?

Schmeling, Baer were both better than a 1927 Jack Dempsey.

Tunney might have been the best of the lot, but only by the slightest of margins over Max Schmeling.

When you add in quality wins over a faded but dangerous sharkey, carnera, and braddock...it adds a much better range of styles defeated and longevity.
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Old 10-29-2012, 08:51 PM   #37
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Default Re: Joe Louis beat the previous 5 heavyweight champions in first 4 years as a pro

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Originally Posted by Bummy Davis View Post
Like I said when he beat Thomas, Pinklon was back on the heroin and I think you could see the contrast from previous fights and subsequent fights....the problem with Page, Tubbs and Witherspoon is that they sometimes did not train at all and gave us some of the worst lean fests in history and when you caught them in shape they were good....I think Thomas prior to the backslide to heroin was a well conditioned guy and could have lasted longer on top had he not....As far as Berbick, like a poor mans Norton he could give certain guys a good fight but IMO would get blown out like he did vs Tyson and Mercado by Louis and some of the better men of the era, especially the punchers
He also beat John Tate... The Mercado fight happened when he was an 11 fight novice. Not saying Berbick would have been a great champion. Only that at his best he could have been a top 10 guy in just about any era, and the 1930's was certainly a crowd that he could have competed against.
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Old 10-29-2012, 10:05 PM   #38
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Default Re: Joe Louis beat the previous 5 heavyweight champions in first 4 years as a pro

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Would it have been?

Schmeling, Baer were both better than a 1927 Jack Dempsey.

Tunney might have been the best of the lot, but only by the slightest of margins over Max Schmeling.

When you add in quality wins over a faded but dangerous sharkey, carnera, and braddock...it adds a much better range of styles defeated and longevity.

"Schmeling, Baer were both better than a 1927 Jack Dempsey"

Even that Dempsey at least put Sharkey down for the count. Schmeling's only victory over Sharkey was on a foul. A past his best Sharkey was still able to outpoint Schmeling in 1932.

As for Baer and Tunney, I would favor Tunney to outpoint Baer rather easily off Baer's poor record against lesser boxers.
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Old 10-30-2012, 01:20 AM   #39
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Default Re: Joe Louis beat the previous 5 heavyweight champions in first 4 years as a pro

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
It is a magnificent acomplishment.

It has to be noted that there are not many if any other eras, where there would have been five active former lineal champions to beat.
It should not have taken two-dozen posts for someone to point this out. Thank you.
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Old 10-30-2012, 01:55 PM   #40
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Default Re: Joe Louis beat the previous 5 heavyweight champions in first 4 years as a pro

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Originally Posted by Smashgar View Post
It should not have taken two-dozen posts for someone to point this out. Thank you.
it was mentioned in the 2nd post. Swap 'magnificent' for 'fantastic'. The rest of the post is a no-brainer, everyone already knows it
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:35 PM   #41
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Default Re: Joe Louis beat the previous 5 heavyweight champions in first 4 years as a pro

Yeah, yeah... but Holyfield beat 7 guys who were Lineal HW Champs.

Foreman, Holmes, Tyson x2, Douglas, Bowe, Moorer, and Rahman... plus a draw vs. Lewis. 8-4-1 (3) vs. these eight men.

Last edited by Hookie; 11-01-2012 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:10 PM   #42
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Default Re: Joe Louis beat the previous 5 heavyweight champions in first 4 years as a pro

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Even that Dempsey at least put Sharkey down for the count.
Yeah, except he illegally hit sharkey with double left uppercut to the balls while way behind on points, on the verge of a knockout loss in round 1. He landed the left hook on Sharkey's jaw only after he fouled him.

Quote:
Schmeling's only victory over Sharkey was on a foul.
So was Dempsey's

Quote:
A past his best Sharkey was still able to outpoint Schmeling in 1932.
A pretty controversial decision, most had Max winning. I personally think Schmeling improved as a fighter later on. Furthermore, Sharkey took Dempsey to school in 1927.
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:11 PM   #43
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Default Re: Joe Louis beat the previous 5 heavyweight champions in first 4 years as a pro

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As for Baer and Tunney, I would favor Tunney to outpoint Baer rather easily off Baer's poor record against lesser boxers
1. It's not like a 1927 Jack Dempsey beat Tunney either. In fact, he got easily beaten by him in 19 out of 20 rounds.

2. Baer would knockout a 1927 jack dempsey.
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:29 PM   #44
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Default Re: Joe Louis beat the previous 5 heavyweight champions in first 4 years as a pro

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Yeah, yeah... but Holyfield beat 7 guys who were Lineal HW Champs.

Foreman, Holmes, Tyson x2, Douglas, Bowe, Moorer, and Rahman... plus a draw vs. Lewis. 8-4-1 (3) vs. these SEVEN men.
Except the draw with Lewis was a BS decision.

I didn't have him beating Bowe in the rematch neither.

holmes and Foreman were both 100 years old between them.

Stats are only worthwhile when context is applied to them.

Plus them being lineal is no big deal, not in my opinion at least.
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Old 10-30-2012, 05:38 PM   #45
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Default Re: Joe Louis beat the previous 5 heavyweight champions in first 4 years as a pro

Suzie Q--Sharkey brought a left hook up from the floor into Schmeling's balls. No one could have missed that one.

Dempsey threw borderline low blows off the film I've seen, but he was least savvy enough to make certain the ref couldn't see his fouls if there were any.

Sharkey turned to gab with the ref and caught the finisher. Tough luck.

Boxing ain't for kindergarteners.

Dempsey won standing in a corner watching Sharkey writhing on the canvas.

Schmeling had to be carried to his corner.

You are free to equate them, I guess, but I don't.
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