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Old 10-28-2012, 12:38 PM   #1
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Default If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

What if Billy Conn won a UD over Joe Louis and became Heavyweight Champion of the World?
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Old 10-28-2012, 12:57 PM   #2
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

I think that he would have gained a standing in popular opinion comparable to Gene Tunney, even if Louis had won the title back six months later. Louis's reputation would have suffered slightly, but it he had regained the title quickly he would likley still have been seen as a top 3 all time heavyweight.

I suspect Louis would have had him in the rematch, but it is possible that Conn might have put it off untill Louis went into the army. In that scenario Conn has an inactive title reign for a few years, and Conn Louis II likley draws a million dolar gate in 1945.
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Old 10-28-2012, 01:27 PM   #3
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
I think that he would have gained a standing in popular opinion comparable to Gene Tunney, even if Louis had won the title back six months later. Louis's reputation would have suffered slightly, but it he had regained the title quickly he would likley still have been seen as a top 3 all time heavyweight.

I suspect Louis would have had him in the rematch, but it is possible that Conn might have put it off untill Louis went into the army. In that scenario Conn has an inactive title reign for a few years, and Conn Louis II likley draws a million dolar gate in 1945.
As most know....Conn was a shell of himself once he got back from WW2.

The 168 lb Conn on the nite of Louis vs Conn I, was his only true window of opportunity.
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Old 10-28-2012, 10:12 PM   #4
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

If Conn had beaten Louis in their first fight it would rank as the greatest victory of all time, bar none and Conn's historical standing would be in the B. Leonard/SRL/Moore/Walker/Ross range.

If Conn had beaten Louis again in an immediate rematch he would probably inch toward Greb/Langford/Armstrong territory.

Its hard to emphasis how huge it would be for 168 pound Billy Conn to score win over the greatest fighting machine who had ever lived up until that point.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:46 AM   #5
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

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Originally Posted by The Funny Man 7 View Post
If Conn had beaten Louis in their first fight it would rank as the greatest victory of all time, bar none and Conn's historical standing would be in the B. Leonard/SRL/Moore/Walker/Ross range.

If Conn had beaten Louis again in an immediate rematch he would probably inch toward Greb/Langford/Armstrong territory.

Its hard to emphasis how huge it would be for 168 pound Billy Conn to score win over the greatest fighting machine who had ever lived up until that point.
Billy Con under that curley hair and handsome face was ONE tough Irishman...Never an amateur he took on terrific MWs from the git go...
By age 20 Conn tackled such tough guys as Fritzie Zivic, Babe Risko, Oscar Rankins,Vince Dundee, Teddy Yarosz, Young Corbett , Solly Krieger, beating them all...20 years of age without one amateur bout...Amazing..
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:06 AM   #6
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

Ali would become the clear #1 at the weight, Conn breaks into the top 10 all time. Those would have been the two biggest retrospective differences.
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:46 PM   #7
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

If the match was 12 rounds, Conn wins. IMO, Conn at 168 pounds exposed Joe Louis. Conn was not much of a KO puncher, yet he staggered/stunned Louis in round 12. Louis to me had an average chin by the standards of heavyweight champions. It just wasn’t questioned much thanks to his offensive skills, power, speed, and lack of opposition.


From a boxing stand point, Conn’s quicker feet / better balance meant he could engage on angles by darting in, scoring, then quickly moving out. Conn was able to do this despite being the shorter man with less reach. Louis had predictable shuffling feet which I think needed to be set for him to at his best.


I have a theory in heavyweight boxing. A shorter quicker opponent can outbox a heavier opponent if their height and reach are comparable, HOWEVER if there is a substantial height and reach differental, the shorter man will be zoned out by the jab or crosses, and can be caught backing up with the hook. If the bigger man is a skilled super heavy, it’s a near given every time. Who agrees?


It was Conn’s folly to for the KO, as a puncher like Louis is always dangerous. Walcott made the same mistake in the 2nd match with Louis when he was up on points.
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:58 PM   #8
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
If the match was 12 rounds, Conn wins. IMO, Conn at 168 pounds exposed Joe Louis. Conn was not much of a KO puncher, yet he staggered/stunned Louis in round 12. Louis to me had an average chin by the standards of heavyweight champions. It just wasnít questioned much thanks to his offensive skills, power, speed, and lack of opposition.


From a boxing stand point, Connís quicker feet / better balance meant he could engage on angles by darting in, scoring, then quickly moving out. Conn was able to do this despite being the shorter man with less reach. Louis had predictable shuffling feet which I think needed to be set for him to at his best.


I have a theory in heavyweight boxing. A shorter quicker opponent can outbox a heavier opponent if their height and reach are comparable, HOWEVER if there is a substantial height and reach differental, the shorter man will be zoned out by the jab or crosses, and can be caught backing up with the hook. If the bigger man is a skilled super heavy, itís a near given every time. Who agrees?


It was Connís folly to for the KO, as a puncher like Louis is always dangerous. Walcott made the same mistake in the 2nd match with Louis when he was up on points.
You realy have written some erant nonsense here.

If the fight was scheduled for 12 rounds it would have unfolded exactly like the first 12 rounds of the actual fight?

Louis was exposed?

When did this happen?

You grade a fighter as having a bad chin based on an incident where he was not knocked off his feet.

If you are reduced to attacking a fighter based on fights that they won, the chances are that you don't have a very good case.
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Old 10-30-2012, 06:12 AM   #9
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
If the match was 12 rounds, Conn wins.
No.

Quote:
Conn was not much of a KO puncher, yet he staggered/stunned Louis in round 12.
Have a close look at his KO record at HW, and then stop perpetuating this lazy cliche.

Quote:
Louis to me had an average chin by the standards of heavyweight champions.
He was stopped exactly twice by two of the most helacious beatings in HW history, one of them when he was way past his prime.
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Old 10-30-2012, 08:07 AM   #10
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VG_Addict View Post
What if Billy Conn won a UD over Joe Louis and became Heavyweight Champion of the World?
What if? Your question is very broad, so do you mean what challengers would Conn have fought as Champion, how long his reign would have lasted or how would he rank among other champions as a result? I think your lacking replies not because its not a good question but because its hard to know what your asking.

Had Conn won, I doubt there'd be a quick rematch if Conn's managment could have avoided it, unless they became drunk on their success. Conn's manager wasn't stupid- I forget his name, but he knew boxing like he knew his hand.

Louis' form and motivation in the Schmelling rematch would probably make him (it'd make me!) very reluctant to put Conn into the ring with Louis even if he had stopped Louis in their first fight. I think they'd recognise they caught Louis napping, and couldn't rely on such luck twice.

I wonder how the boxing and broader world wopuld have treated a Conn win- doubtless he'd have been feted the world over. Were I his manager, I'd studiously avoid Louis and select as few challengers for as long as possible reign as possible while milking money from exhibitions and tours etc. Fights at Hvy would be over 10 rounds only, if that was possible as it was for Dempsey, and I'll bet for a white Hvy. champions even the hardest of rules would melt like butter.

Mabye a potential mega-match with Ray Robinson could be in the offing, were I his manager it's something I'd prefer to the Louis rematch in a hurry. I think for all of Conn's talents many of bona fide Hvy. challengers could beat him. But by avoiding the sharks, rematching Pastor, mabye he could even take Walcott, who knows??

I just think that for all of Conn's abilities, their were vulnerabilities too, for instance I think I recall Moore complaining that Conn's managment would not let Moore near him despite Moore's goading. Mabye I worry about Conn's weight/size too much?
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Old 10-30-2012, 08:10 AM   #11
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VG_Addict View Post
What if Billy Conn won a UD over Joe Louis and became Heavyweight Champion of the World?


Then Floyd Patterson would have been the SECOND man in boxing history to have regained the heavyweight title.

There would have been such a sensation that an immediate rematch would have been arranged,and Louis would have evened the score.
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:33 PM   #12
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

Where would Conn be ranked P4P? I mean, it WOULD have been a pretty big accomplishment.
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Old 10-30-2012, 08:51 PM   #13
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Angry Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
You realy have written some erant nonsense here.

If the fight was scheduled for 12 rounds it would have unfolded exactly like the first 12 rounds of the actual fight?

Louis was exposed?

When did this happen?

You grade a fighter as having a bad chin based on an incident where he was not knocked off his feet.

If you are reduced to attacking a fighter based on fights that they won, the chances are that you don't have a very good case.

Use your reason, or let the unbiased films do the talking.


1 ) Conn was in the lead after 12 rounds. If this fight was a 12 round match, Conn likely wins. Louis simply could not catch up to Conn until Conn opted to go for the KO in round 13. I see no reason why the fight would play out significantly different if the match was scheduled for 12 rounds.


2 ) Conn who was not a puncher at 168 pounds stunned Joe Louis! Louisí chin was shaky. Like I said average at best by a championís standard. Want more examples? A light punching Tommy Farr stunned Louis on film. The likes of Jimmy Braddock floored him. So three light punchers at heavyweight ( Conn, Farr, and Braddock ) with low KO% either floored or stunned Louis. Not exactly the mark of a good chin.


The best skilled punchers Rocky fought were Schmeling and Marciano. Louis could not recover from the cross that floored him by Schmeling. He lingered around the ring buzzed for much of the fight. Yes, Louis was older / not in his prime when he meet Rocky, but Joe won 8 fights in a row leading up to that match, and some of them were vs. name guys. Itís not a coincidence that both Schmeling and Marciano defeated Louis. If you want Louis words, he said he could not have defeated Marciano anyway. Another good boxer in Walcott floored Louis twice, and won the majority of the rounds if you combine both fights. And Chalres had his way. When Louis was in there with a man with skills, and his power didnít bail him out early, his flaws were exposed.


Letís use a modern day what if. Suppose Joe Clazahge at 168 pounds slapped Lennox Lewis or Wlad around the ring for 11 rounds, then did something stupid and got caught. Both menís legacies would crash! But Louis for some reason is beyond such objective analysis. Never understood why.
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:54 AM   #14
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
If the match was 12 rounds, Conn wins. IMO, Conn at 168 pounds exposed Joe Louis. Conn was not much of a KO puncher, yet he staggered/stunned Louis in round 12. Louis to me had an average chin by the standards of heavyweight champions. It just wasnít questioned much thanks to his offensive skills, power, speed, and lack of opposition.


From a boxing stand point, Connís quicker feet / better balance meant he could engage on angles by darting in, scoring, then quickly moving out. Conn was able to do this despite being the shorter man with less reach. Louis had predictable shuffling feet which I think needed to be set for him to at his best.


I have a theory in heavyweight boxing. A shorter quicker opponent can outbox a heavier opponent if their height and reach are comparable, HOWEVER if there is a substantial height and reach differental, the shorter man will be zoned out by the jab or crosses, and can be caught backing up with the hook. If the bigger man is a skilled super heavy, itís a near given every time. Who agrees?


It was Connís folly to for the KO, as a puncher like Louis is always dangerous. Walcott made the same mistake in the 2nd match with Louis when he was up on points.
Conn had 15 fights against heavyweights he won 13, losing only to Louis twice.
Of that 13, he won 8 by stoppage.
Among those stoppages were Pastor, only stopped twice ,by Conn and Louis, Barlund,and Knox.
of the 5 that went the distance with him only to lose, 1 McCoy , was only stopped once, by Louis.Another was the tough Lee Savold.

According to Louis himself ,and also his son , Joe stood 6 foot 1 1/2 inches, the same height as Conn.

Bang goes your "theory".

Not wishing to be seen as the "bully taking advantage of the smaller challenger ,Louis dried out for the first Conn fight , coming in at 199.5lbs , he said he ",felt like shit".
" Jim Braddock was a light puncher" ? Was he?

I see you suscribe to the view that if the Conn Louis fight was over the 12 rounds distance ,Conn would have won.
Does this mean that if the Corbett v Jeffries 1st fight was over 20 rounds Corbett would have regained the title?

That Johnson would have retained his crown in Havana, had the fight been 20rds?
I ask because I can clearly recall you stating in past posts that Jeffries would have fought differently over a shorter distance .


I've never seen anything positive by you concerning Joe Louis .


According to some of your posts, he had corrupt judges/referees help him retain his title on several occasions, he had a poor chin,[ despite only being stopped twice, in 69 fights by 2 acknowledged big hitters,] poor footwork, [yet in his prime no fancy fast stepping boxer out pointed him].


Could it be the problem for you regarding Mr Barrow is his complexion?

Last edited by mcvey; 10-31-2012 at 06:17 AM.
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:13 AM   #15
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Default Re: If Billy Conn beat Joe Louis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
1 ) Conn was in the lead after 12 rounds. If this fight was a 12 round match, Conn likely wins.
Already, you've softened your stance in relation to what you originally wrote.

"If the fight is twelve rounds Conn wins" has now become "likely wins." Jantior and myself corrected you, you alter your position, that's fine.

Quote:
2 ) Conn who was not a puncher at 168 pounds stunned Joe Louis!


But here you resist education more firmly.

Of the 13 fights Conn won at HW, 8 were won by way of KO, including a stoppage win over Bob Pastor, making him only the second man to stop him after Joe Louis. Pastor survived numerous punchers but Conn stopped him. He also stopped Lyons, O'Dowd, Knox, Barland, Hassett, Hughes, Dorazio for a MUCH higher KO% at HW than at any other weight. In short, Conn, like many other snippers found his punching ability when he changed training, sparring and tactics for success in the heavyweight division.

He was never going to be Earnie Shavers, but stunning Louis hardly means he has been revealed if you look a little closer than ko% and weight.

Quote:
Louis’ chin was shaky. Like I said average at best by a champion’s standard. Want more examples? A light punching Tommy Farr stunned Louis on film. The likes of Jimmy Braddock floored him. So three light punchers at heavyweight ( Conn, Farr, and Braddock ) with low KO% either floored or stunned Louis. Not exactly the mark of a good chin.


And yet being stopped twice in 69 fights spanning seventeen years, most of them spent in title fights is the sign of an absolutely exceptional chin. The truth, for any unbiased observer, is somewhere in the middle.
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