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Old 10-29-2012, 04:24 AM   #31
rusak
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Default Re: Tyson would have beaten George Foreman and heres why!

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
Tyson's defense was fundamentally sound. Very good mechanics, well schooled.

It wasn't, however, well timed or effective. Tyson got hit. A lot. Even by bums he blew away.

Tyson doesn't beat Foreman because he can't do what he needs to win: Avoid getting hit early and often. If Jesse Ferguson can land every other uppercut and right hand he threw early, I think George can connect with at least a similar frequency, and I don't think any heavyweight in history can absorb flush bombs from Foreman and not suffer serious adverse effects. Ali managed it, but he took his worst licks to the body, and fought entirely on the defensive. Tyson would be eat the big shit trying to come in and throw.

It's a fun fight, and Tyson is a beast, but there is such a thing as a nuclear style disadvantage. Ask Joe Frazier.
Ferguson was landing uppercuts on the inside, not at "Foreman range". Tyson's main weakness, outside of his lack of height and reach, was his weak inside game. He was too easy to tie up and would just fall asleep as soon as someone tried. But Foreman had no inside game himself and I doubt he would be looking to tie up Tyson every second like Bonehugger Smith.

Tyson got hit but so did Foreman. Foreman's defense ain't shit. Frazier was landing left hooks and jabs on him until he got hurt. What happens if Tyson is able to time Foreman's wide swings and they miss? I can just see Foreman getting hit flush with bombs. If Jimmy Young can hurt Foreman, Tyson can take him out.

I don't think you can just put Tyson's head on Frazier's body like it would be exactly the same. Tyson was in many ways better and more dangerous than Frazier. He was two handed, had better two-handed speed and power, and was physically stronger than Frazier. Frazier also bounced around a lot, which made it easier for Foreman to shove him around.
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Old 10-29-2012, 04:39 AM   #32
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Default Re: Tyson would have beaten George Foreman and heres why!

I've always believed that prime Tyson beats prime Foreman. Yes Foreman destroyed Frazier, BUT a prime Tyson was a COMPLETELY different fighter than Frazier. Tyson's head movement was much more sophisticated and scientific. Tyson also starts out much faster and throws combinations much faster. So using the Frazier logic in a Tyson vs Foreman debate just isn't realistic.
I think a prime Tyson's movement could easily make Foreman's wide swings miss, and once Foreman misses, Tyson could counter with lightning-fast combos, and since Foreman didn't have good head movement he'll get tagged. Tyson just had too much speed, skill, and movement for Foreman to handle.
I also never believed that bs about Cus telling Tyson that he can't beat Foreman..... Cus would never tell Tyson anything to jeopardize his confidence.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:50 AM   #33
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Default Re: Tyson would have beaten George Foreman and heres why!

So you think George doesn't shove Tyson or look to land punches to his left shoulder to twist his torso on the outside? That's what he did to Frazier. The other thing he did that a lot of folks don't bother watching is he moved back a half a step after doing that. Shove and move. Or hit that shoulder and twist his torso and open him up. Then have the big shots ready when the opponent moves in trying to close the gap. It was an example of extremely good and savvy footwork.

Tyson has to reset his feet. every time. And since he's a left foot forward guy, you could be talking about taking 3 steps, not 1 step to close the gap on Foreman. That's a lot of real estate to make up and maybe literally 4 or 5 feet. That's not 1 step the way Mike moves his feet. Plus, a superior workrate to constantly move those feet closing that gap.That's hardly what Tyson does best. This opponent is far more formidible than closing the gap on guys like Tucker and Smaith and later on Douglas and Holyfield. He couldn't effectively pull that manouver off against those guys and Foreman's uppercuts with both hands/nasty left hook/right hand are 4 punches for Tyson to avoid and he'll have to avoid for 3 minutes a round.

I just don't see Mike pulling something like that off and being mistake free.
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Old 10-29-2012, 07:52 AM   #34
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Default Re: Tyson would have beaten George Foreman and heres why!

Following the OP's logic, Frazier should've beaten Foreman. Like what's been said before, it's not a video game : Foreman's style would trouble Tyson without a doubt. He'd catch him with an uppercut I'd say.
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Old 10-29-2012, 08:33 AM   #35
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Default Re: Tyson would have beaten George Foreman and heres why!

Tyson was a defensive genius compared to Foreman, who had a mediocre inside game himself. I laugh at the people who say Tyson couldnt fight inside and no, Tyson didnt get hit cleanly a lot during his prime. He would have sliced Foremans weak defense up and knocked him out with in 5 rounds. Foreman too slow to wide, Tyson too fast too accurate and too difficult for Foreman to hit cleanly.
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Old 10-29-2012, 09:37 AM   #36
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Default Re: Tyson would have beaten George Foreman and heres why!

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
It wasn't, however, well timed or effective. Tyson got hit. A lot. Even by bums he blew away.
Cut poor Mike some slack, Magna.

You make him sound like Brewster with faster hands.
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Old 10-29-2012, 10:27 AM   #37
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Default Re: Tyson would have beaten George Foreman and heres why!

Tyson would demolish Foreman, too fast and too good defensively, he's landing his bombs at will while George just doesn't land enough to get the job done
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
Tyson's defense was fundamentally sound. Very good mechanics, well schooled.

It wasn't, however, well timed or effective. Tyson got hit. A lot. Even by bums he blew away.

Tyson doesn't beat Foreman because he can't do what he needs to win: Avoid getting hit early and often. If Jesse Ferguson can land every other uppercut and right hand he threw early, I think George can connect with at least a similar frequency, and I don't think any heavyweight in history can absorb flush bombs from Foreman and not suffer serious adverse effects. Ali managed it, but he took his worst licks to the body, and fought entirely on the defensive. Tyson would be eat the big shit trying to come in and throw.

It's a fun fight, and Tyson is a beast, but there is such a thing as a nuclear style disadvantage. Ask Joe Frazier.
Strongly disagree, Tyson's defense at it's best sees him rarely get tagged, especially against bigger slower men. Foreman will land some punches, but he isn't getting it done or detering Tyson with the occasional heavy punch

The issue in this fight for me is Foreman's leaky defence, not Tyson's
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:07 PM   #38
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Default Re: Tyson would have beaten George Foreman and heres why!

If I had the time, I'd make a highlight video of Mike Tyson getting hit in the face in his first 25 fights.

It happened quite a bit.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:16 PM   #39
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Default Re: Tyson would have beaten George Foreman and heres why!

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
If I had the time, I'd make a highlight video of Mike Tyson getting hit in the face in his first 25 fights.

It happened quite a bit.
Totally true. Dempsey, also. Frazier, also. I have always felt that bob and weave approach a young man's game and a heavy use of calories for only moderate results.

However, could Tyson pull off what Morrison did so awkwardly but effectively? Could he perform to level one degree higher than Alex Stewart?
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:25 PM   #40
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Default Re: Tyson would have beaten George Foreman and heres why!

I think Tyson could ABSOLUTELY pull the Morrison trick. He's fast enough, and his best defense was often his feet, not his erratic head movement. I think he could control range, if he desired, and go for a points decision on rapid fire shots.

I just think that type of plan would be the last thing he'd think of, and actually, I view the Alex Stewart fight as the sort of thing that gives Mike problems here. Foreman was relentless; No matter what Alex hit him with, fighting not very much like Mike Tyson, I might add, George kept coming after him. Mike was also WAY more complacent with range then he should have been, partially due to his speed and power edge in his day. He could be tied up, he could be shoved off, and he could be kept away, but for his short, rapid bursts that usually did the job.

I give Mike a much, much better shot at the older Foreman, btw, I thought this was more of a prime for prime discussion. The loss in foot speed would hurt George in this matchup, though I think the addition of one of the best heavyweight jabs ever helps him more than anybody talks about.
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:05 PM   #41
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Default Re: Tyson would have beaten George Foreman and heres why!

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
I give Mike a much, much better shot at the older Foreman, btw, I thought this was more of a prime for prime discussion. The loss in foot speed would hurt George in this matchup, though I think the addition of one of the best heavyweight jabs ever helps him more than anybody talks about.
He fought when he was young?

For some reason, I assumed this was the fight that actually could have happened not a fantasy match.

I would pick Foreman in that 73-74 sweet spot, but Tyson both before and after that. You have to remember that Foreman was fed a steady diet of stiffs up to the Frazier fight with only Chuvalo coming close to elite. Peralta gave him a lot to handle. If that were Tyson... Goodnight, George. Also, post-Ali Foreman had fallen apart mentally. If Tyson were prepared correctly and focussed, I think he outworks the Lyle version of George to take a decision, kind of along the lines of the bigger foes he faced in the 80's.

George is
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:18 PM   #42
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Default Re: Tyson would have beaten George Foreman and heres why!

At the staredown in ring center Tyson pee's himself. Foreman would dominate forcing Tyson backwards and pushing him around physically. Tyson had a good jab but George was like a telephone poll. I don't see the fight going 3 rounds with Foreman being the winning. George is just too dominant physically for a crouching smaller hat like Tyson.
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:27 PM   #43
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Default Re: Tyson would have beaten George Foreman and heres why!

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At the staredown in ring center Tyson pee's himself. Foreman would dominate forcing Tyson backwards and pushing him around physically. Tyson had a good jab but George was like a telephone poll. I don't see the fight going 3 rounds with Foreman being the winning. George is just too dominant physically for a crouching smaller hat like Tyson.
Who the hell ever stopped Tyson in 3? Not even Lewis could stop a mummified, shot Mike in 3. And so Perralta goes 10 but Tyson only 3?

Foreman was also preferred a very slow set-up with his footwork to really sit down on his punches. That's prime time openings for Tyson's attack. If Tyson got the opening's that limited Ron Lyle did, they would still be counting.
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:33 PM   #44
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Default Re: Tyson would have beaten George Foreman and heres why!

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
If I had the time, I'd make a highlight video of Mike Tyson getting hit in the face in his first 25 fights.

It happened quite a bit.
Unforgiven under yet another screename.
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Old 10-29-2012, 02:00 PM   #45
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Default Re: Tyson would have beaten George Foreman and heres why!

Prime vs past prime/shot, then the prime fighter wins between the two all the time pretty much. Problem with both is I see Foreman lunging in and getting hit in da belly which would take some air outta the questionable stamina he had. Problem with that is that with body blows you have to come close to your opponent. Foreman wasn't fast he was much moreso quick and I'm pretty sure he could correct his mistake of missing before getting whacked. He looked lumbering but even Ali the fastest,quickest of all said he was surprised how George cut off distance and get towards him quickly. I think the jab would be a factor with Mike coming in but dont see it landing much as well as a body one would leave him vulnerable to a chin-ripping uppercut. Mid range is the preferred spot with both.


Both are juggernauts in prime and its a toss up H2H. For the record, Tyson had questionable stamina too though he was much more educated with his attacks in his prime. Past prime he got hit too much thus me thinking that version has no shot at a prime George. Foreman could be wild many times and impatient in his prime but he was pretty deceptive and a master at manhandling foes by pushing them around.

Style says Foreman but I wouldn't count a prime Mike out. He loved facing bigger guys but none on his record mirror George. Would be a fun fight but unsure about George's bodypunching. Going there would limit the twisting and slipping Tyson would do with headmovement as bodypunches hurt and accumulate over a period of time. Both have great chins but none Tyson had faced had the power of George though him being shot taking Lewis bombs no problem for the most part was courageous. Lewis/Tyson gets done enough so back to Foreman/Tyson(gets done enough to but what the hell, having fun in my non-schoolwork period lol):

What if Tyson gets hurt? Not like he can just grab him with his t-rex arms. Not even sure if he's stronger than Foreman. If not that's even more of a mountain to climb at the moment. George knew just how to finish and I can't see Tyson getting on his bike. Never even did that when he was shot. Again, bodypunching should be crucial in this matchup for Foreman but the less he goes there the more chances I give Mike. Forgot to bring up the ref. Would the constant pushing be allowed for Foreman? What about "Elbows" Mike? Safe to say a KO/TKO is the most brought up result if this were to be processed through a fantasy matchup simulation.
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