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Old 11-01-2012, 11:49 AM   #16
Senor Pepe'
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Default Re: What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

1967

Yank Durham said Joe Frazier would be ready for Cassius Clay in two-years.

Yank said, Joe was still learning, right after Joe 'chopped up' George Chuvalo on July 19, 1967.



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Old 11-01-2012, 12:31 PM   #17
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Default Re: What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

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Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69 View Post
i love Frazier and believe prime/prime he wins! But in 67 I am not sure he was seasoned enough....He had a few solid wins like Bonavena, Machen, Jones & Chuvalo...but not quite ready for prime time.
Agree 100% with this post.
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:33 PM   #18
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Default Re: What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

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Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
1967

Yank Durham said Joe Frazier would be ready for Cassius Clay in two-years.

Yank said, Joe was still learning, right after Joe 'chopped up' George Chuvalo on July 19, 1967.



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I hate to nit pick pepe...But do you have a source for this information????
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:19 AM   #19
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Default Re: What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

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Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69 View Post
i love Frazier and believe prime/prime he wins! But in 67 I am not sure he was seasoned enough....He had a few solid wins like Bonavena, Machen, Jones & Chuvalo...but not quite ready for prime time.

If Ali had n't have been exiled,the earliest Frazier would have been competitive would have been 1968 or '69.
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:39 AM   #20
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Default Re: What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

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If Ali had n't have been exiled,the earliest Frazier would have been competitive would have been 1968 or '69.
Oh he wouldn't have been just competitive...he woulda whooped em' again!
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:29 PM   #21
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Default Re: What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

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I like muhammad Ali to take this by a comfortable decision. Ali was still developing rapidly in the late 60's, and had his momentum not been dissrupted by the lengthy exhile, his skills would have been in perfect tact. With both Ali and Frazier burning the candle at both ends by eating up all the available contenders, its likely that they would have been forced together around 1968. At this point we'd be looking at a peak Ali and a somewhat less experienced Frazier.
I can agree with you somewhat Mr. Magoo.

I think Joe has a harder time with the Ali of 67 but at the same time we're talking about the Joe who didn't bust his ankle singing with this group and the cataracts weren't as pronounced as they'd become after FOTC.

Joe moved better in the late 60's, stayed low and worked the body better. I still think Joe catches up with the same Ali who fought Folley and Williams but Ali chances of winning are greater.
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:44 PM   #22
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Default Re: What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

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What if Frazier and Ali had their first fight in the mid to late 60s? This, of course, assumes Ali was never exiled.
Clear UD to Muhammad Ali, very hard & competitive fight but he just outlands Joe 3 to 1 anytime there is any distance between them & Joe doesn`t cut him off & corner him anywhere near as much as he did the slower footed, less stamina version of 1971... hell Joe had trouble cornering the 74 version for 12 rounds once Ali had shaken off the ring rust, the 60s version was far superior when employing that strategy.

Ali W15 UD Frazier
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:49 PM   #23
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Default Re: What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

Ali probably wins a close decision, maybe giving a rematch, where he wins wider. There's the possibility Frazier walks through fire again to pull off a FOTC win for Ali to adapt to win the ud
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Old 11-02-2012, 12:53 PM   #24
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Default Re: What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

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Frazier was much better in 68-69 than he was in 71....So an even wider margin of victory can be excpected!
Much better ?... sure he was... & Ali was much better in 71 than he was in the 60s too, right ?
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Old 11-03-2012, 06:50 AM   #25
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Default Re: What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

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Much better ?... sure he was... & Ali was much better in 71 than he was in the 60s too, right ?

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Old 11-03-2012, 06:51 AM   #26
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Default Re: What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

Frazier and Norton would still have been the 1967 Ali's toughest opponents had he met prime versions around that time.
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Old 10-26-2013, 12:27 PM   #27
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Default Re: What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

Ali wins 10 out of 15 rounds for a unanimoud decision, but Frazier would be more than a live underdog.
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Old 10-26-2013, 12:50 PM   #28
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Default Re: What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

If you look at fight one what turned the fight to Fraziers favor was Ali not having the legs to continue outboxing Joe. Instead he stayed on the ropes and gave rounds away culminating in that huge hook in round 11 and the hook that put him down in round 15. This was IMO prime Frazier...he never was so pumped for a fight...extremely motivated and he was in top condition at 26 years of age. Ali although still not yet 30 was 6 months shy from a 4 year layoff. He was obviously not the fighter he was prior to that layoff. This cannot be dsputed.

My feeling is a fight with Ali in say 68 or 69 Frazier would be in the ring with an Ali we never saw...prime Ali at his absolute best. Ali would be boxing at high speed for 15 rounds...moving all that time. Frazier with that hook would def have his moments but he would miss many more shots than in fight one.

Ali wins the first 5-6 rounds...Joe comes on and it's back and forth the next 5-6...however Ali closes well with all the punches Frazier had received doing there damage. Ali by U decision....9-6 in rounds.
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Old 10-26-2013, 01:55 PM   #29
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Default Re: What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

Too much is made of Ali hitting an "even higher peak" had he been active in 1968 and 1969. Muhammad fought only once in 1964, twice in 1965, five times in 1966 and twice in 1967 the final year before his exile. Without his political problems Ali possibly would have only fought 2 times in 1966 a year that built him up into a peak because he was so active. If anything he peaked then. With a two fight year his peak would have been delayed some, perhaps he could have had less of an easy time against Terrell? After all muhammads preparation for the Terrell showdown could not have been better, still razor sharp off a 6 title fights 12 month schedule compared with Ernnies one fight in 13 months.

I believe Frazier would have been due a shot about 1968 at the latest and by then Frazier still represented a stronger test than any of Ali's previous challengers. ALI was so commanding against Folley that he almost appeard lackadaisical, happy to give rounds away in order for zora to expose himself later on. Frazier would have taken advantage of an ALi in that mood. The Ali he did fight in 71 started quite fast, faster than he had against any earlier chalengers, and yet Joe still had what it took to overcome Ali at full flight. Remember the 15 rounds with bonnavena was excelent prep for Ali to shake off rust.

I think Frazier was good enough to take Ali in 1968. He was always good enough to take one of a 3 fight serries off Ali no matter when they fought.
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Old 10-26-2013, 02:05 PM   #30
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Default Re: What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

Joe wouldn't have been ready to challenge him until 1969. Chuvalo's made it pretty clear how much exile took away from Ali's athleticism [supported by Patterson's concurring opinion].

For me, the irony of Manila is that Muhammad stopped Joe precisely because he WAS past his best, needing to punch it out because the legs weren't there anymore.

In 1969, Ali sticks, runs and clinches his way to a decision which is hectic for him and frustrating for Joe. However, this is easily the most competitive defense Ali's had, and Frazier becomes the first [and possibly only] challenger to earn a second World Title challenge of Ali. It's entirely possible that Ali-Frazier II in 1970 or 1971 would be the more anticipated event, and I don't see Ali-Frazier I in 1969 physically depleting Smoke as the FOTC did.
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