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Old 11-04-2012, 03:39 PM   #31
Bill Butcher
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Default Re: Robinson vs. Jones: Who's better?

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
^ By all means argue whatever you want on the basis of "abilities" but this is just crap.
x10
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:46 PM   #32
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Default Re: Robinson vs. Jones: Who's better?

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Originally Posted by Vockerman View Post
Yo PP,

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Yes, Vinnie IS one of Roy’s 10 best wins as pathetic as that is.

Are you sure you are paying attention to the facts and not looking at Roy through those rose colored glasses?

Getting 20 Something ABCDEFG paper strap scrappers scalps is not that big a deal today since we have so many watered down weight divisions and so many champs in each division from so many ABC orgs. I’m not impressed. You shouldn’t be either…

Robinson, on the other hand, went 40-0 as a pro before losing a decision to Jake Lamotta, a middleweight who outweighed him by nearly 16 pounds.

He was unbeatable for the next eight years going on a 91 bout winning streak.

That one streak alone is about 50% greater than Roy’s entire career.

Now when you bring up Ray’s losses you doom YOUR man in terms of legacy.

Robinson’s total record is 175-19-6 2 NC with 109 kayo’s. 16 of his 19 losses came after his first comeback at age 34, 12 after the age of 40.

Now let us compare Roy’s record after age 34!!
When was Robinson EVER sparked? Where are his 3 fight losing streaks – Roy has a pair of them.

Robinson, far past his best and over his best weight, consistently and repeatedly won and recaptured world titles. Roy? Not so much… Not any at all actually.

Robinson was absolutely outstanding in rematches. He won rematches against 11 men before finally losing twice to the same fighter. No one ever beat him twice until he was 40 years old and had over 150 fights and even then they were two split-decisions.

Against this we have Roy’s fabulous once in a lifetime – well once in Roy’s lifetime anyway, victory over Montel Griffith which is the only loss he ever avenged…

BTW since you are so impressed with Roy's top 2 wins you must be a HUGE Calzaghe fan! He has better "top two" wins than Roy does!
Game, set & match
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:52 PM   #33
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Default Re: Robinson vs. Jones: Who's better?

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Originally Posted by Vockerman View Post
Yo PP,

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Yes, Vinnie IS one of Roy’s 10 best wins as pathetic as that is.

Are you sure you are paying attention to the facts and not looking at Roy through those rose colored glasses?

Getting 20 Something ABCDEFG paper strap scrappers scalps is not that big a deal today since we have so many watered down weight divisions and so many champs in each division from so many ABC orgs. I’m not impressed. You shouldn’t be either…

Robinson, on the other hand, went 40-0 as a pro before losing a decision to Jake Lamotta, a middleweight who outweighed him by nearly 16 pounds.

He was unbeatable for the next eight years going on a 91 bout winning streak.

That one streak alone is about 50% greater than Roy’s entire career.

Now when you bring up Ray’s losses you doom YOUR man in terms of legacy.

Robinson’s total record is 175-19-6 2 NC with 109 kayo’s. 16 of his 19 losses came after his first comeback at age 34, 12 after the age of 40.

Now let us compare Roy’s record after age 34!!
When was Robinson EVER sparked? Where are his 3 fight losing streaks – Roy has a pair of them.

Robinson, far past his best and over his best weight, consistently and repeatedly won and recaptured world titles. Roy? Not so much… Not any at all actually.

Robinson was absolutely outstanding in rematches. He won rematches against 11 men before finally losing twice to the same fighter. No one ever beat him twice until he was 40 years old and had over 150 fights and even then they were two split-decisions.

Against this we have Roy’s fabulous once in a lifetime – well once in Roy’s lifetime anyway, victory over Montel Griffith which is the only loss he ever avenged…

BTW since you are so impressed with Roy's top 2 wins you must be a HUGE Calzaghe fan! He has better "top two" wins than Roy does!
Roy would have stopped Robinson at 160 quite surely.
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Old 11-04-2012, 04:07 PM   #34
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Default Re: Robinson vs. Jones: Who's better?

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Not close, Jones was far far harder to hit than Robinson, but his punch slipping it down to reflex if you like, he's leagues better defensively than Robinson
I agree.

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Yes Jones resume is underrated, he beat 20 something champions. The fact you think Paz is 1 of his best wins, shows you really didn't follow boxing closely during the period

Hill had been a champion for what 10 years, McCallum an ATG, Reggie Johnson was arguably unbeaten and 2 weight champ, with wins over Collins, an SD with Toney, Mallinga twice beat Benn and took Rochiagiani and Eubank to the wire, Tarver was the next champion, Gonzalez beat Darius, Harding beat the next champion in Tarver and Griffin. He beat plenty of fighters who went onto win titles after he beat him like Hopkins, Woods, Gonzalez, Lucas, Castro, Malinga
Jones is more hurt by the era he fought in here than anything else. Boxing had doubled up in terms of divisions (8 to 16) and titles (2 to 4). How many were considered the legit champion and how many mere titlists? Did Jones beat more world champions than Harry Greb too, really? I already know you consider Roy Jones the Greatest Fighter of All-Time by a looooooong shot. It isn't even remotely close as far as your concerned, which is why I mulled even getting involved in this thread.

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People hype up Robinson's resume talking about hall of famers, but allot of those HOFamers just aren't that good. Graziano being a case in point, a brawler with a punch who avoided nearly all the best of his era.
Out of the ten Hall of Famers Robinson beat, I rate Graziano last amongst them, probably.

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Lamotta, Fullmer and Basilio are basic pressure guys, tough and relentless but none of them that great.
I think simply because LaMotta wasn't mind blowing athletically or a varied technician doesn't mean he wasn't great. He was effective at what he did, had wins over Marcel Cerdan, Holman Williams, Fritzie Zivic, Tommy Yarosz, Bert Lytell, Robert Villemain, Jose Basora, Bob Satterfield, Laurent Dauthuille and oh yeah, the only guy to beat Ray Robinson in his first 130-some odd fights. Four of the five times Robinson beat him, he was at a distinct weight disadvantage and the fifth time he beat him for the Middleweight Title and became the only guy to stop him at 160. His W resume is better than Bernard Hopkins.

Fullmer and Basilio both achieved enough in their time to earn their HOF credentials, but more than that is Robinson beat them when he was well past his best. He was six years Basilio's senior and nine years Fullmer's with so many more wars, fights and mileage on his odometer. These are actually two of his best wins because of that. The way he recaptured the title from Fullmer is one of the sport's most legendary moments.

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These aren't the P4P best guys from his era. Galivan probably is, as are Burley, Pep, Charles, Moore, Charles, Marshall. Galivan is the best P4P Robinson fought alongside an old Armstrong, Jones fought 2 men who would be top2 P4P boxers in Hopkins and Toney.

Robinson won the MW title 5 times, how many times did he lose it though?

You say Robinson beat 6 Undisputed champs, did those undisputed champs take on the coloured champion? I think it's more, out of the undisputed champs and belt holders in his era Jones faced allot of them
Yes, Kid Gavilan had exceptional athleticism, skills and ability, was Robinson's immediate successor, actually had a better reign and is a Top 3-5 WW all-time and really nothing short of that.

Before his retirement, he had won it, lost it and won it back. It wasn't until returning from a nearly three-year layoff that he actually started losing - to very good/great fighters - on any type of relatively consistent basis. His ability to keep winning it back, from age 35-37, is only a credit to him. The losses mean even less than Jones' post-Tarver II defeats, only Robinson still had numerous achievements to collect.

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Robinson faster than Jones now, seriously

Yes Jones left hook was faster, shorter, sharper, more accurate and yes more powerful

And no Robinson doesn't have better stamina prime for prime, Jones fights at a faster pace than Robinson in his filmed fights

Killing an opponent has nothing to do with power, Jesus Chavez killed an opponent, do you rate him as an all time puncher?
Okay.
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Old 11-04-2012, 04:19 PM   #35
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Default Re: Robinson vs. Jones: Who's better?

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Jones ability level is above Robinson, he's faster, better defense, better left hook, stronger and packs more P4P power. Robinson has a better jab and right

Legacy wise Jones has the most underrated resume around here, he has a case to be above Robinson. His 2 best wins are arguably better than RObinson's, his dominance in his prime is much more so than Robinson
I am baffled that you hold Jones in such high regard.

Yes he was an awesome talent, but aren’t even you a little disappointed with the resume he walked away from his prime with?
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Old 11-04-2012, 04:30 PM   #36
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Default Re: Robinson vs. Jones: Who's better?

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I am baffled that you hold Jones in such high regard.

Yes he was an awesome talent, but aren’t even you a little disappointed with the resume he walked away from his prime with?
He barely lost a round in his prime. It's really not his fault he made good fighters look lesser than their capabilities. Take Reggie Johnson for example. Damned good fighter, B- level at worst. Roy Jones shut him out and did whatever he wanted with him, taking his title.

No one seems to give a damn.
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Old 11-04-2012, 04:40 PM   #37
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Default Re: Robinson vs. Jones: Who's better?

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He barely lost a round in his prime. It's really not his fault he made good fighters look lesser than their capabilities. Take Reggie Johnson for example. Damned good fighter, B- level at worst. Roy Jones shut him out and did whatever he wanted with him, taking his title.

No one seems to give a damn.
I don't deney that he clowned some fighters who nobody had any business clowning, but why couldn't he take that ability and run with it?

If he had gone after the toughest opponents he could get into the ring, then he could have built a better legacy, even if he picked up the odd loss.

He chose to squander his talent when he had it, and only started going after the most dangerous opponents when it was too late, and he was becoming a name to grace their resumes.
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Old 11-04-2012, 04:48 PM   #38
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Default Re: Robinson vs. Jones: Who's better?

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I don't deney that he clowned some fighters who nobody had any business clowning, but why couldn't he take that ability and run with it?

If he had gone after the toughest opponents he could get into the ring, then he could have built a better legacy, even if he picked up the odd loss.

He chose to squander his talent when he had it, and only started going after the most dangerous opponents when it was too late, and he was becoming a name to grace their resumes.
Well the Dariusz fight would have been nice, but Dairusz turned down a career high payday to stay in Germany a few times.

Of course Roy Jones could have had a better legacy, it's still a good legacy regardless. This can be applied to a number of fighters.
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:06 PM   #39
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Default Re: Robinson vs. Jones: Who's better?

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Originally Posted by Vockerman View Post
Yo PP,

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Yes, Vinnie IS one of Roy’s 10 best wins as pathetic as that is.

Are you sure you are paying attention to the facts and not looking at Roy through those rose colored glasses?

Getting 20 Something ABCDEFG paper strap scrappers scalps is not that big a deal today since we have so many watered down weight divisions and so many champs in each division from so many ABC orgs. I’m not impressed. You shouldn’t be either…

Robinson, on the other hand, went 40-0 as a pro before losing a decision to Jake Lamotta, a middleweight who outweighed him by nearly 16 pounds.

He was unbeatable for the next eight years going on a 91 bout winning streak.

That one streak alone is about 50% greater than Roy’s entire career.

Now when you bring up Ray’s losses you doom YOUR man in terms of legacy.

Robinson’s total record is 175-19-6 2 NC with 109 kayo’s. 16 of his 19 losses came after his first comeback at age 34, 12 after the age of 40.

Now let us compare Roy’s record after age 34!!
When was Robinson EVER sparked? Where are his 3 fight losing streaks – Roy has a pair of them.

Robinson, far past his best and over his best weight, consistently and repeatedly won and recaptured world titles. Roy? Not so much… Not any at all actually.

Robinson was absolutely outstanding in rematches. He won rematches against 11 men before finally losing twice to the same fighter. No one ever beat him twice until he was 40 years old and had over 150 fights and even then they were two split-decisions.

Against this we have Roy’s fabulous once in a lifetime – well once in Roy’s lifetime anyway, victory over Montel Griffith which is the only loss he ever avenged…

BTW since you are so impressed with Roy's top 2 wins you must be a HUGE Calzaghe fan! He has better "top two" wins than Roy does!



Wow, outstanding post. Whilst I think that Jones would beat Robinson H2H at 160, and that Jones is comparable to anyone talent wise, to suggest that Jones' resume even compares to Robinson (let alone argue it's better!) is ridiculous beyond belief.
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:49 PM   #40
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Default Re: Robinson vs. Jones: Who's better?

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Roy would have stopped Robinson at 160 quite surely.
The risk he'd need to assume to accomplish that would see Him getting stopped before Robinson.
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Old 11-04-2012, 05:56 PM   #41
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Default Re: Robinson vs. Jones: Who's better?

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Well the Dariusz fight would have been nice, but Dairusz turned down a career high payday to stay in Germany a few times.

Of course Roy Jones could have had a better legacy, it's still a good legacy regardless. This can be applied to a number of fighters.
Jones should not have been aiming for a "good" legacy, with his level of talent.

He should have gone after the records of some of the historic p4p greats.

He gave us a flash of that when he beat John Ruiz.
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:01 PM   #42
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Default Re: Robinson vs. Jones: Who's better?

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Originally Posted by turbotime View Post
Well the Dariusz fight would have been nice, but Dairusz turned down a career high payday to stay in Germany a few times.

Of course Roy Jones could have had a better legacy, it's still a good legacy regardless. This can be applied to a number of fighters.
This is not about running down Roy Jones, my boyhood hero.

But compared to Ray Robinson? Jones' career sees him way behind there.

In a fight between them at 160 I'd expect the much heavier Jones to use his fleet feet to win a decision. But stop Ray? Pull the other one, Robinson was nails and Roy would know he was dangerous and pick him apart safely.

Jones is the best fighter I've ever seen on film but there's a lot of shit opponents he took on that add nothing to his legacy even though he dominated them.
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:02 PM   #43
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The risk he'd need to assume to accomplish that would see Him getting stopped before Robinson.
Got there before me
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:21 PM   #44
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Default Re: Robinson vs. Jones: Who's better?

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Originally Posted by Vockerman View Post
Yo PP,

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Yes, Vinnie IS one of Roy’s 10 best wins as pathetic as that is.
All points aside, that article is crap. It also somehow has Trinidad in there, which makes no sense.

Off the top of my head and in random order, these guys were better than Paz and Trinidad:
Tarver
Ruiz
Griffin
Hill
Hopkins
Toney
Gonzales
Harding
McCallum
Johnson
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:23 PM   #45
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The risk he'd need to assume to accomplish that would see Him getting stopped before Robinson.
Roy is levels above any fighter at MW Robinson KO'd. Roy could have Ko'd Fullmer and Turpin as well in a round of his choosing, certain of it.

Ray had a puncher's chance sure, but his willingness to mix it up would have gotten himself stopped by a guy with the countering ability of a Jones jr.



























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