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Old 11-08-2012, 05:32 PM   #1
Flea Man
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Default Greater Performance:Sumbu Kalambay Vs Mike McCallum I or Roy Jones Jr Vs James Toney?

Take everything into account if you can please

-Better opponent dominated? Your views on the opponents.
-Who had the bigger challenge on paper? The contemporary views of the opponents.
-Level of skill/ability demonstrated by the victors?
-What was more impressive about the superior showing?
-Etc etc etc

If you want to grade both wins, go ahead. A gut feeling? Okay. But for me these are both schoolings of the highest order with different pro's for each performance and each opponent.
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:37 PM   #2
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Default Re: Greater Performance:Sumbu Kalambay Vs Mike McCallum I or Roy Jones Jr Vs James To

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Take everything into account if you can please

-Better opponent dominated? Your views on the opponents.
-Who had the bigger challenge on paper? The contemporary views of the opponents.
-Level of skill/ability demonstrated by the victors?
-What was more impressive about the superior showing?


If you want to grade both wins, go ahead. A gut feeling? Okay. But for me these are both schoolings of the highest order with different pro's for each performance and each opponent.
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:39 PM   #3
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Default Re: Greater Performance:Sumbu Kalambay Vs Mike McCallum I or Roy Jones Jr Vs James To

And no single emoticon responses
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:44 PM   #4
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Default Re: Greater Performance:Sumbu Kalambay Vs Mike McCallum I or Roy Jones Jr Vs James To

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Take everything into account if you can please

-Better opponent dominated? Your views on the opponents.
-Who had the bigger challenge on paper? The contemporary views of the opponents.
-Level of skill/ability demonstrated by the victors?
-What was more impressive about the superior showing?
-Etc etc etc

If you want to grade both wins, go ahead. A gut feeling? Okay. But for me these are both schoolings of the highest order with different pro's for each performance and each opponent.
it's hard not to pick Jones-Toney

Kalambay put on a good performance, but it was nothing like what Jones did to Toney
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:44 PM   #5
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Default Re: Greater Performance:Sumbu Kalambay Vs Mike McCallum I or Roy Jones Jr Vs James To

i go with Jones-Toney, and I am not a fan of Jones, but he was just briiliant that night.
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:45 PM   #6
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Default Re: Greater Performance:Sumbu Kalambay Vs Mike McCallum I or Roy Jones Jr Vs James To

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
And no single emoticon responses
I'm thinking !
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:50 PM   #7
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Default Re: Greater Performance:Sumbu Kalambay Vs Mike McCallum I or Roy Jones Jr Vs James To

To those picking Jones-Toney was McCallum not the superior fighter to Toney? Does that not mean much? Or does Jones' freakish brilliance eclipse Kalambay's less insanely eye catching showing?

Who was the better scalp? I tend not to take anything off Toney for being weight drained and give Roy full credit. Any posters that don't? And how good was McCallum when Kalambay didnt allow him to get a foot in the door?
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:56 PM   #8
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Default Re: Greater Performance:Sumbu Kalambay Vs Mike McCallum I or Roy Jones Jr Vs James To

Jones Toney was more one sided, but McCallum was a better fighter on the night he lost than the drained Toney.

Relatively speaking i'd say it's about an equal performance.It was a bit disappointing that Jones never opened up more on Toney and took more risks late once he'd established his superiority through his speed on the outside.I wouldn't have been surprised if he could really have given him a beating late, but he was content to take it easy.
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:57 PM   #9
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Default Re: Greater Performance:Sumbu Kalambay Vs Mike McCallum I or Roy Jones Jr Vs James To

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Originally Posted by lora View Post
Jones Toney was more one sided, but McCallum was a better fighter on the night he lost than the drained Toney.
How many rounds did you give McCallum?
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:59 PM   #10
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Default Re: Greater Performance:Sumbu Kalambay Vs Mike McCallum I or Roy Jones Jr Vs James To

It's tough to decide IMO because IMO MM was on par with the level of Toney at the very least, was fought with no asterisks (people love to say Toney was drained) and Sumbu doesn't have the physical gifts Jones has in order to make things look THAT easy, so he had to work a bit harder, but having earned it using every faculty should garner major props.

Then you have Roy who absolutely schooled Toney (was ranked the best fighter in the world at the time) losing neary a minute of the fight, considering it was Jones' first real big test to most people. And consider Toney was never done like that, ever, not even at heavyweight.

Lots of variables to consider
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:08 PM   #11
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Default Re: Greater Performance:Sumbu Kalambay Vs Mike McCallum I or Roy Jones Jr Vs James To

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
How many rounds did you give McCallum?
Don't think he clearly won any, but there were 3-4 fairly quiet rounds where not much landed and it was just back and forth fencing\probing shots.Kalambay was never a fighter to go all out in every round and neither was McCallum.It was a typical consummate pure boxers wide decision, not a flashy shutout where even someone who is new to the sport would easily see who was winning every round.I'd say Jones vs Toney was closer to that, but not fully either. as Jones didn't go flat out either(never his style) and there were probably about the same number of quiet rounds in Jones vs Toney, but Toney seemed more consistently out of touch and there was that three-four round spell round about\just after the mid-way point where Jones just made a fool of him.Toney started doing that pathetic side-ways crab walk etc.
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:12 PM   #12
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Default Re: Greater Performance:Sumbu Kalambay Vs Mike McCallum I or Roy Jones Jr Vs James To

First and last time I've ever seen Toney legitimately intimidated in a boxing match. He wasn't sure what the hell was going to happen
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:18 PM   #13
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Default Re: Greater Performance:Sumbu Kalambay Vs Mike McCallum I or Roy Jones Jr Vs James To

Jones Toney is probably the best post-hagler performance involving two middleweight fighters, even though strictly speaking it's a light heavy performance.

Hopkins Trinidad, Kalambay McCallum, McCallum Watson and Nunn Tate would be my other picks.
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:52 PM   #14
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Default Re: Greater Performance:Sumbu Kalambay Vs Mike McCallum I or Roy Jones Jr Vs James To

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
To those picking Jones-Toney was McCallum not the superior fighter to Toney? Does that not mean much? Or does Jones' freakish brilliance eclipse Kalambay's less insanely eye catching showing?

Who was the better scalp? I tend not to take anything off Toney for being weight drained and give Roy full credit. Any posters that don't? And how good was McCallum when Kalambay didnt allow him to get a foot in the door?
if Toney was drained, that's his problem

I don't like that excuse, and I also give full credit to the winner, unless there is some sort of very detrimential catch-weight involved

I think McCallum may have been a better scalp yes, because McCallum, though his skill set was comparable to the one of Toney, was an undefeated fighter who didn't struggle to beat his opponents, he was more dominant, no Tiberi kind of mess on his record

another point in Kalambay's favor is the fact that after their rematch, McCallum wouldn't lose for another 4 or 5 years

meanwhile, Toney had quite a bit of trouble at 175

but I still think the one-sided nature of Jones-Toney is the determining factor if you ask which is the better performance
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:15 AM   #15
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Default Re: Greater Performance:Sumbu Kalambay Vs Mike McCallum I or Roy Jones Jr Vs James To

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Take everything into account if you can please

-Better opponent dominated? Your views on the opponents.
Mike was clearly more able on the night.


Quote:
-Who had the bigger challenge on paper? The contemporary views of the opponents.
I think Toney underperformed to what was expected of him. Sumbu simply rose to the occasion more than Mike failing to meet expectations.

Quote:
-Level of skill/ability demonstrated by the victors?
I think both Sumbu and Roy put on very skilful displays. Jones to some extent simply out-athleticised Toney though, and didn't really allow it to become a battle of skills.


Quote:
-What was more impressive about the superior showing?
I wouldn't classify either showing as superior to the other. Both were excellent.

As Mante said, perhaps Roy coasted in the end instead of taking his performance to the next level and trying to lay a beating on Toney. It became a bit ho-hum after the initial shock of un-competitiveness. Nevertheless he made it look like a stroll in the park.

The Kalambay-McCallum fight was more competitive and I think you could give Mike about 4 rounds. But of course Mike was the better opponent on the night and gave a solid effort.

Both performances were impressive, but I got the impression with both that the victors were working a stylistic advantage against their opponents, which kind of made them academic after a few rounds.

Last edited by sweet_scientist; 11-09-2012 at 12:35 AM.
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