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Old 11-11-2012, 08:36 PM   #121
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Default Re: "Wladimir versus The Legends."

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Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose View Post
Great dissection of Vlads style/reason he is as good as he is - the only one's I'd bet my house on beating Vlad would be Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey - for all the reasons above and more he would be a very very difficult fighter for anyone to fight - the guy is immense! At the same time I think the one thing that needs to be sorted out is the ridiculously biased in his favour refereeing and the ridiculous amount of holding he is allowed to do and if he didn't have the option of that he might start to get quickly found out by a lot of these guys listed - he shouldn't be allowed to grab and hold every time anyone makes any kind of move - he has absolutely no idea how to even start to fight inside and yes if he was allowed to do all the grabbing and smothering then maybe is actually favour him over a lot of these guys at the opening bell - but in my fantasy fights were talking 1950's rules set which encompassed everything the way it should be as far as the rules for the best fights - if forced to fight without holding then I'd instead be expecting to see something like the Sanders thing happening sooner or later - I do think Vlad gives very awkward fights to everyone else other than Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey - how could he not really - although one thing I've got to say is that I always thought a young Lennox Lewis would without any shadow of a doubt beat Vitali and I think would also be at least likely to beat Vlad as well
I don't think Wlad's unbeatable, but I don't think either of the above two men are going to do the job, and if we're talking 1950s rules, then the neutral corner rule has to be kept in mind regarding Dempsey.

I do agree that a good ref who penalises excessive clinching would change things quite a bit for Wlad, and it would be interesting to see how he does when forced to fight and defend every minute of every round against a good come forward infighter. In that case I'd be much more willing to give fighters like Frazier and even Marciano a much better shot (though I still think Marciano is just too small and slow to beat Wlad).

Paradoxically, I would also give Wlad a much better chance against Ali, at least mid 70s Ali.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:39 PM   #122
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Default Re: "Wladimir versus The Legends."

You don't get a pass for being flabby and unfocused.

This is something that bothers me about guys who don't box for a living, honestly. It's hard work. Professionalism it to be valued; Focus is important. Great fighters sometimes get turned away by great trainers for the reasons of the cornermen not wanting the headache.

Mike Tyson acted like an amateur and a ****y SOB, and he got whupped. Hasn't happened to Wlad yet.

Lewis took Rahman lightly, and showed up flabby and unacclimated, and got cracked.

You know what we KNOW in a Wlad vs. ANYBODY match? Wlad does the work in prep. You know what we don't know about Tyson? Whether he does the same.

Excuses are a dime a dozen, I prefer, and rate accordingly, the fighters who just don't need them. Mike Tyson needed a ton of them after Spinks. We'll see if Wlad ever needs quite so many.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:22 PM   #123
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Default Re: "Wladimir versus The Legends."

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I think that you are definitely selling short the finer points of Louis's "big fighter game" here. Louis was the single best fighter under 6' 2'' at demolishing superheavyweights that the sport ever produced, including Mike Tyson.
The big fighters Louis fought weren't even in the same stratosphere in terms of athleticism or skills, let alone the manner in which they approached their fights. I don't think his demolitions of Buddy Baer, Abe Simon and Primo Carnera have any baring on how he'd do against Wlad at all: Baer completely gave up his height to fight on the inside, and Simon and Carnera were just too limited to make use of their size advantage.

I think the mistake many people make when historically matching Wlad up with other fighters in in thinking he's just a huge man who can box, when really he's a great boxer who also happens huge. Someone like Schmeling for instance shares more in common with Wlad than any of the giants Louis fought, cagey, great jab, good controller of distance, etc. Of course it's not a perfect comparison, but it gives a better gauge on the types of problems Louis may face against a fighter of Wlad's style.

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He would have used a low crouch and an armadilo defence to approach Wlad, which would not have left Wlad with much to aim his jab at when he was closing in. He would also have invested in a boddy attack to take away Wlads game before he went after the chin. Sooner or later he would have made or been given his chance to set up his finishing combination, and when he did it would have been game over.
Louis would definitely fight crouched over, it was more or less the same way he fought every time. But I don't see how that leaves Wlad with nothing to aim at here. He wouldn't necessarily be catching the jaw, but he'd be hitting the top and left side of Louis's head, as well as his forehead, as Louis tried to close the distance, and the jarring effect would still be enough to catch Louis's attention and keep him from coming forward. Louis was not an impossible target to hit, he did not make his head a constantly moving target in the manner of a Frazier or a Tyson.

Even were he to get close enough to work the body, I don't see how he's going to respond to the inevitable: getting clinched up and leaned on. As I see it his best bet, as I mentioned in an earlier post, is to try to time a quick overhand right over Wlad's jab and stun him enough to get in a series of short sharp punches on the inside when Wlad's too dazed to effectively tie him up. That's not an impossible scenario to imagine, but I just don't think it's very likely.

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Untill last night I might have agreed with you, but does lasts nights fight perhaps suggest that Wlad has got round some of his earlier weaknesses with more than stylistic comensation?

Either way, it is always a mistake to get caught up in the momentum surrounding a fighter during their prime run. Wlad is still very beatable. There just isn't the right fighter around to capitalize on it.
Oh yes, I definitely think he's a better, smarter fighter today than he was back in the early to mid 2000s. I think that's evident. But I still contend that a really solid chinned, aggressive come forward fighter like McCall would have a good chance of upsetting the applecart. I'm not saying it's a sure thing, mind, but I'd give him a better chance than many historically greater fighters simply due to his attributes and mentality.

Wach was tough and game, but he was still too slow and reticent in coming forward to really bother Wlad in any way. The batshit crazy McCall would have no such qualms. I can just picture him getting totally outboxed for several rounds then thinking, "eff this," dropping his hands, and just rampaging forward throwing overhand rights like a nutter. Would it be enough? Don't know, but it would certainly rattle Wlad up something fierce, and that's the first step in breaking him down as I see it.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:40 PM   #124
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Default Re: "Wladimir versus The Legends."

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Yes we have seen eye to eye I will say that if Tyson doesn`t get him by rd 6, I definitley could see it going down just like you say... Tyson could get frustrated if he didn`t get a guy go early or easy enough. Thats whats great about these posts, great debates !
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Old 11-11-2012, 10:16 PM   #125
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Default Re: "Wladimir versus The Legends."

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
You don't get a pass for being flabby and unfocused.

This is something that bothers me about guys who don't box for a living, honestly. It's hard work. Professionalism it to be valued; Focus is important. Great fighters sometimes get turned away by great trainers for the reasons of the cornermen not wanting the headache.

Mike Tyson acted like an amateur and a ****y SOB, and he got whupped. Hasn't happened to Wlad yet.

Lewis took Rahman lightly, and showed up flabby and unacclimated, and got cracked.

You know what we KNOW in a Wlad vs. ANYBODY match? Wlad does the work in prep. You know what we don't know about Tyson? Whether he does the same.

Excuses are a dime a dozen, I prefer, and rate accordingly, the fighters who just don't need them. Mike Tyson needed a ton of them after Spinks. We'll see if Wlad ever needs quite so many.
It is reality that Tyson lost something after he and Rooney split. His style need the discipline and consistency provided by Rooney as taught by D`Amato. Anyone with any knowledge of boxing could clearly see that Tyson started to slide once he parted ways with Rooney. Obviously you should get it as you can clearly see that Steward was able to smooth Vlad`s edges. Perpeartion, doesn`t make for better whiskers... AS I stated, Vlad`s questionable whsikers always leave him at risk. Against Ali, and without a doubt Clay, he`d need a lot more than preperation and and robotic movement. And this comes from someone who is a trainer and has half a clue. Preperation is always key. But, it doesn`t always make up for coming up against someone who either has better skills, or has a punch that could do serious damage to a questionable chin ... Waht was Vlad`s excuse for being stopped, twice by less than opponents ?

Last edited by Waynegrade; 11-12-2012 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 11-11-2012, 10:20 PM   #126
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Default Re: "Wladimir versus The Legends."

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Originally Posted by Absolutely! View Post
The big fighters Louis fought weren't even in the same stratosphere in terms of athleticism or skills, let alone the manner in which they approached their fights. I don't think his demolitions of Buddy Baer, Abe Simon and Primo Carnera have any baring on how he'd do against Wlad at all: Baer completely gave up his height to fight on the inside, and Simon and Carnera were just too limited to make use of their size advantage.

I think the mistake many people make when historically matching Wlad up with other fighters in in thinking he's just a huge man who can box, when really he's a great boxer who also happens huge. Someone like Schmeling for instance shares more in common with Wlad than any of the giants Louis fought, cagey, great jab, good controller of distance, etc. Of course it's not a perfect comparison, but it gives a better gauge on the types of problems Louis may face against a fighter of Wlad's style.



Louis would definitely fight crouched over, it was more or less the same way he fought every time. But I don't see how that leaves Wlad with nothing to aim at here. He wouldn't necessarily be catching the jaw, but he'd be hitting the top and left side of Louis's head, as well as his forehead, as Louis tried to close the distance, and the jarring effect would still be enough to catch Louis's attention and keep him from coming forward. Louis was not an impossible target to hit, he did not make his head a constantly moving target in the manner of a Frazier or a Tyson.

Even were he to get close enough to work the body, I don't see how he's going to respond to the inevitable: getting clinched up and leaned on. As I see it his best bet, as I mentioned in an earlier post, is to try to time a quick overhand right over Wlad's jab and stun him enough to get in a series of short sharp punches on the inside when Wlad's too dazed to effectively tie him up. That's not an impossible scenario to imagine, but I just don't think it's very likely.



Oh yes, I definitely think he's a better, smarter fighter today than he was back in the early to mid 2000s. I think that's evident. But I still contend that a really solid chinned, aggressive come forward fighter like McCall would have a good chance of upsetting the applecart. I'm not saying it's a sure thing, mind, but I'd give him a better chance than many historically greater fighters simply due to his attributes and mentality.

Wach was tough and game, but he was still too slow and reticent in coming forward to really bother Wlad in any way. The batshit crazy McCall would have no such qualms. I can just picture him getting totally outboxed for several rounds then thinking, "eff this," dropping his hands, and just rampaging forward throwing overhand rights like a nutter. Would it be enough? Don't know, but it would certainly rattle Wlad up something fierce, and that's the first step in breaking him down as I see it.
Does anyone really think that Wach had any business in a title fight ? This fight can`t be the measuring stick for which Vlad is measured as a great fighter ???
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:11 AM   #127
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Default Re: "Wladimir versus The Legends."

Marciano might last until the later rounds, but he does not pressure as startlingly quick as Frazier does, so the chance of springing one on Wlad is remote.

Frazier, while having most of the right tools, is not strong enough to bull Klitschko into the ropes. I believe he would be utterly frustrated against Klitschko, get cheeky, and get stopped.

Floyd is a step below Klitschko, in my opinion.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:13 AM   #128
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Default Re: "Wladimir versus The Legends."

Klitschko beats Bowe.
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