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Old 02-02-2008, 01:55 PM   #1
Sardu
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Default The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

This is the young, hungry, fit as a fiddle savage who decimated Willard under a broiling Toledo, Ohio sun on July 4, 1919. The most intimidating and sensatonal ring monster till the young Tyson burst onto the scene fifty years later. A former hobo from Colorado of Scotch-Irish descent. His close cropped jet black hair with a five of clock shadow coupled with his lean, sinewy build and deep tan made his appearance alone intimidating. Liston was a hulking, immensely powerful and gifted fighter with an unreal 84" reach. He could punch but lso could box. Like Dempsey, he had one punch power and often smashed out teeth and broke facial bones with his lethal connects. He had nowhere near Dempsey's handspeed but comparable punching power. This version is a prime Liston who took Cleveland 'Big Cat' Williams' best shots and roared back to brutally kayo him for a signature performance.

size - Liston
brute strength - Liston
punching power - Dempsey
chin - Dempsey
stamina - Dempsey

favorite in fight - Dempsey


The fight - Liston tries to stare Jack down during refs instructions but it has no effect whatsoever of course. You do not intimidate Jack Dempsey. He does the intimidating wth his fists. Stardowns are not his or later - Marciano's MO. He instead ignores Liston's gaze prefering to just stare down at the canvas.

The fight is a great one as you would expect. Liston gets his jab going right away. Dempsey is more cautious than usual. He rips Liston with a left hook to jaw and Sonny takes a knee. But Dempseyis not rushing here. In the second things heat up. Liston seems slow compared to Dempsey and Dempsey has elite power to go along with that speed. Liston goes down again. It is starting to look like a mismatch because it probably is. But Liston is game. He nails Jack in the forth as he rushes in. Dempsey takes a knee but is not badly hurt. Liston is bleeding from his nostrils and the side of his face is raw and red. In the 5th it is over as Dempsey digs in with a series of lefts and rights. Liston can barely defend himself and the ref rightly stops it. Dempsey wins by 5th round TKO.

winner: Jack Dempsey TKO 5 Sonny Liston

"This fellow was very stong. He hurt me a few times. He's a fine fighter." - Dempsey

"He was so fast I could not defend a lot of his punches. I give him all the credit but would like a rematch." - Liston
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Old 02-02-2008, 02:29 PM   #2
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sardu
This is the young, hungry, fit as a fiddle savage who decimated Willard under a broiling Toledo, Ohio sun on July 4, 1919. The most intimidating and sensatonal ring monster till the young Tyson burst onto the scene fifty years later. A former hobo from Colorado of Scotch-Irish descent. His close cropped jet black hair with a five of clock shadow coupled with his lean, sinewy build and deep tan made his appearance alone intimidating. Liston was a hulking, immensely powerful and gifted fighter with an unreal 84" reach. He could punch but lso could box. Like Dempsey, he had one punch power and often smashed out teeth and broke facial bones with his lethal connects. He had nowhere near Dempsey's handspeed but comparable punching power. This version is a prime Liston who took Cleveland 'Big Cat' Williams' best shots and roared back to brutally kayo him for a signature performance.

size - Liston
brute strength - Liston
punching power - Dempsey
chin - Dempsey
stamina - Dempsey

favorite in fight - Dempsey


The fight - Liston tries to stare Jack down during refs instructions but it has no effect whatsoever of course. You do not intimidate Jack Dempsey. He does the intimidating wth his fists. Stardowns are not his or later - Marciano's MO. He instead ignores Liston's gaze prefering to just stare down at the canvas.

The fight is a great one as you would expect. Liston gets his jab going right away. Dempsey is more cautious than usual. He rips Liston with a left hook to jaw and Sonny takes a knee. But Dempseyis not rushing here. In the second things heat up. Liston seems slow compared to Dempsey and Dempsey has elite power to go along with that speed. Liston goes down again. It is starting to look like a mismatch because it probably is. But Liston is game. He nails Jack in the forth as he rushes in. Dempsey takes a knee but is not badly hurt. Liston is bleeding from his nostrils and the side of his face is raw and red. In the 5th it is over as Dempsey digs in with a series of lefts and rights. Liston can barely defend himself and the ref rightly stops it. Dempsey wins by 5th round TKO.

winner: Jack Dempsey TKO 5 Sonny Liston

"This fellow was very stong. He hurt me a few times. He's a fine fighter." - Dempsey

"He was so fast I could not defend a lot of his punches. I give him all the credit but would like a rematch." - Liston
Balderdash.

size - Liston
brute strength - Liston
punching power - LISTON
chin - LISTON
stamina - Dempsey

favorite in fight - LISTON, heavily.
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Old 02-02-2008, 02:47 PM   #3
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

No non-americans are going to be for Dempsey. He was an american icon in the roaring 20's while Liston was the quintessential anti-hero or villian so to speak much later on. I personally think he seemed like an okay guy and there are too many myths and tall tales about Liston. Anyway, I stand by my opinion.


Let's get this out of the way now:

Senya - Liston KO 1 Dempsey
Snorlax - Liston KO in 30 seconds Dempsey
Amsterdam - (if he visits this thread) Dempsey faints from Liston's prefight scowl and starts weeping. His corner stops the fight before it happens.
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Old 02-02-2008, 02:52 PM   #4
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Balderdash.

size - Liston
Yes

Quote:
brute strength - Liston
Probably

Quote:
punching power - LISTON
Punching effectivness Dempsey

Quote:
chin - LISTON
If anything I would give the chin to Dempsey.

Quote:
stamina - Dempsey
Yes

Speed Dempsey

Defence Dempsey

Quote:
favorite in fight - LISTON, heavily.
Pick your best gentlemen.
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Old 02-02-2008, 02:56 PM   #5
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

This thread was done like a month ago or so, no offense Sardu, i understand you think highly of both fighters, however the respsonses you will get from majority of the posters here will be very one sided and biased against Dempsey. I mean people make the likes of Michael Spinks, Jimmy Young etc a favourite over a peak Dempsey, so what chance will he have of beating a peak Liston? Lol
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Old 02-02-2008, 03:18 PM   #6
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmt
This thread was done like a month ago or so, no offense Sardu, i understand you think highly of both fighters, however the respsonses you will get from majority of the posters here will be very one sided and biased against Dempsey. I mean people make the likes of Michael Spinks, Jimmy Young etc a favourite over a peak Dempsey, so what chance will he have of beating a peak Liston? Lol
Thanks bro good points. Didn't know this matchup was already covered before sorry.
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Old 02-02-2008, 03:30 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Liston either knocks him out early or jabs the **** out of him en route to a TKO victory.

Bad matchup for the Mauler.
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Old 02-02-2008, 03:36 PM   #8
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
If anything I would give the chin to Dempsey.
Tunney put Dempsey down. Firpo put Dempsey down. Sardenburg reportedly put Dempsey down nine times in one round, abeit back in 1915.

Who put Liston down before 1965? Marty Marshall did -back in what '54? He didn't go down again, legitimately, for 12 years. Liston was bigger than Dempsey and I would argue that he had a better chin. Was he toughter? I doubt it. But his skill set exceeded Dempsey and not by a little.
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Old 02-02-2008, 03:38 PM   #9
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sardu
No non-americans are going to be for Dempsey. He was an american icon in the roaring 20's while Liston was the quintessential anti-hero or villian so to speak much later on. I personally think he seemed like an okay guy and there are too many myths and tall tales about Liston. Anyway, I stand by my opinion.
I was actually getting ready to argue on Dempsey's behalf against Tyson. And I'm writing from Boston.
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Old 02-02-2008, 03:39 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

That's Boston, MA -USA, not England.
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Old 02-02-2008, 04:04 PM   #11
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Balderdash.

size - Liston
brute strength - Liston
punching power - LISTON
chin - LISTON
stamina - Dempsey

favorite in fight - LISTON, heavily.
Short left hook, uppercut or straight right?

I mention these punches specifically for stylistic reasons ... how do you see it panning out or does it go the distance with the judges deciding the winner?
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Old 02-02-2008, 04:07 PM   #12
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Liston TKO4.
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Old 02-02-2008, 04:18 PM   #13
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Tunney put Dempsey down. Firpo put Dempsey down. Sardenburg reportedly put Dempsey down nine times in one round, abeit back in 1915.
Tunny should be considered at least the puncher that Marty Marshal was. Firpo hit like a truck. I dont much care what hapened when Dempsey was a hobo fighting for a sandwitch.

Quote:
Who put Liston down before 1965? Marty Marshall did -back in what '54? He didn't go down again, legitimately, for 12 years.
There are a couple of points that make me think that Listons chin is over rated and they are admitedly far from conclusive.

1. Liston was taken out with a single punch by Leotis Martin. Obviously he was shot but nobody managed the same feat against a shot Joe Louis or a shot George Foreman.

2. Liston was aledgedly knocked out in sparring by Mac Foster with a single punch.

Again I acknowledge that these points are inconclusive.

Quote:
But his skill set exceeded Dempsey and not by a little.
Here I strongly disagree.

In terms of the style he used Dempsey was almost faultless. He was better technicaly than Mike Tyson in my opinion and could be compared to Roberto Duran.
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Old 02-02-2008, 04:45 PM   #14
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Quote:
Originally Posted by META5
Short left hook, uppercut or straight right?

I mention these punches specifically for stylistic reasons ... how do you see it panning out or does it go the distance with the judges deciding the winner?
Liston has the physical advantage in every category mentioned with the exception of stamina and speed, and perhaps punching 'effectiveness' as was mentioned. He would have to be heavily favored against Dempsey.

Would he beat Dempsey? Now that's a different question.

As stated, I was going to argue on behalf of Tyson over Dempsey. The reason is two-fold. The first is that it annoys me when the untried and untested out here on ESP just pick "their man" with no argument and by devestation. The second is that Tyson, though a devestating puncher and I think the most devestating puncher in HW history, was an insecure child between the ears. Dempsey was as tough as a man can get... he was a teenager fighting in those old "smokers" and challenging anyone in a barroom to a brawl. Unlike John L., this ass-whipper was 130 pounds. His money shot then was a left hook to the body.

I truly believe that men were tougher then. And the Mauler was a hobo who had to fight and win to eat. Tyson better get him out early or else Dempsey could very possibly tear away that Man Facade layer by layer and round by round until the child underneath is exposed.

Liston was tougher than he is given credit for out here. He suffered in his life and not a little, and he had the misfortune of getting caught in Carbo's net and it isn't like you could walk away from that. Liston had character and I don't see him wilting under the Dempsey onslaught. Liston was demonstrably composed under fire from larger men who hit harder -like Williams particularly. Dempsey's strange weaving style out of a low crouch was complex stuff. He pivoted very well and found angles to throw everything in every shot. It is not easy to cope with and I don't see Liston's jab as much of a factor.

Liston would have to bull him backward and catch him with short uppercuts, which were Dempsey's stylistic vulnerability. His face was hanging out there parallel with the canvas. The sparring match with Bill Tate tells us much. Dempsey's style was incredibly effective in my opinion against boxers... against physically superior guys like Liston, Dempsey may not be allowed his requisite forward motion. Liston, unlike Tate here, would not be moving backward.

Many people think that Tunney simply outboxed Dempsey. This is not altogether true.. sure, he stepped around him and out of range and put together combinations, but Tunney was most effective when he was coming forward and Dempsey was going backwards. He was able to land his shots because Dempsey wasn't as defensively or offensively sound when not being aggressive. Much like Tyson. Tunney's plan resembled Holyfield's against Tyson.

I'd have to say that Liston would likely hurt Dempsey enough to either stop him or take a decision.
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Old 02-02-2008, 04:59 PM   #15
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Tunny should be considered at least the puncher that Marty Marshal was. Firpo hit like a truck. I dont much care what hapened when Dempsey was a hobo fighting for a sandwitch.
Firpo did not hit as hard as Cleveland Williams. Firpo had only a rudimentary understanding of how to punch.

Dempsey was a hard man in a hard time. What is boxing if it is not a character sport?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
There are a couple of points that make me think that Listons chin is over rated and they are admitedly far from conclusive.

1. Liston was taken out with a single punch by Leotis Martin. Obviously he was shot but nobody managed the same feat against a shot Joe Louis or a shot George Foreman.

2. Liston was aledgedly knocked out in sparring by Mac Foster with a single punch.

Again I acknowledge that these points are inconclusive.
Liston was pushing 40 against Leotis. Dempsey wasn't fighting after he lost a step with age. But he did go down 9 times in the first round against some no-name called Sudenberg, albeit when he was 20.

And Liston's chin is not overrated, it's woefully underrated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Here I strongly disagree.

In terms of the style he used Dempsey was almost faultless. He was better technicaly than Mike Tyson in my opinion and could be compared to Roberto Duran.
I have great respect for Dempsey's style, but it was one-dimensional and based on aggressive and evasive forward motion. It worked very well for him, but it had holes and simply didn't work if he wasn't coming in. Liston was better-schooled.

Although Dempsey gets an undeserved bad rap these days, he was nowhere near the level of skill of Duran. Duran was a brawling pressure fighter, a puncher, a boxer-puncher, and a counterpuncher as the situation required. And his defense was excellent.
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