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Old 02-03-2008, 12:02 PM   #31
Stonehands89
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I dont think that Dempseys punches were telegraphed at all. He threw more short punches traveling under 18" than any other heavyweight champion in history. On the outside he ocasionaly commited verry heavily to a punch but that dose not mean that it was not calculated or delivered with acuracy.
[thanks JT!]

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
He comes as close to it as any heavyweight dose. I am in no doubt on that point.
---now we meet in agreement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
It is when we are comparing him to Liston.
Which wasn't the point of my assertion. Dempsey was beautifully evasive in his aggression. In terms of systematic, technical know-how, Liston was better-schooled. I see Dempsey as relying more on speed/reflexes and flexibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Would you think badly of me if I suggested that Dempseys head movment was as good as Durans or better?
In 1919, I'd say it was better. I am very impressed by his unique style in the sparring matches with Tate.

Dempsey really squandered his greatness in my opinion. The infrequency of his title defenses, his nouveu-rich lifestyle --you can see him losing a step between Willard and Gibbons and really deteriorating by the time Tunney got him.

...By the way, Janitor, Jack Burke put him down twice in sparring before the Gibbons fight.... a left hook and a right cross. Would you like to change your mind about the chin question between he and Liston?
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Old 02-03-2008, 12:16 PM   #32
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

In defence of Firpo, Ted Spoon does not believe anyone is in the position to criticize this and that about his career.

Luis rubbed shoulders with a lot of classy operators in his career and was taken under the wing by one of the best old-school trainers in Jimmy DeForest for his fight with the Mauler who, ironically, whipped Dempsey into impeccable knick during his rise.

Jimmy did not train guys who were not worth his time.

Janitor is not far off when describing Luis as 'cute', he was not slick but did have a handful of shoulder jigs and possum tactics that were taught in South American boxing.

It probably dawned on Firpo that his only way to defeat Dempsey was in a good ol' slugfest, but in the small snippets we have of him chipping away at Willard we see a bit more of conventional boxing that many like to believe Firpo did not possess one ounce of.
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Old 02-03-2008, 12:37 PM   #33
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Spoon
In defence of Firpo, Ted Spoon does not believe anyone is in the position to criticize this and that about his career.

Luis rubbed shoulders with a lot of classy operators in his career and was taken under the wing by one of the best old-school trainers in Jimmy DeForest for his fight with the Mauler who, ironically, whipped Dempsey into impeccable knick during his rise.

Jimmy did not train guys who were not worth his time.

Janitor is not far off when describing Luis as 'cute', he was not slick but did have a handful of shoulder jigs and possum tactics that were taught in South American boxing.

It probably dawned on Firpo that his only way to defeat Dempsey was in a good ol' slugfest, but in the small snippets we have of him chipping away at Willard we see a bit more of conventional boxing that many like to believe Firpo did not possess one ounce of.
This whole site is built around our perceived right to criticize this & that and everything else about this or that guy's career! I shall indulge and invite you to as well. Criticism doesn't mean disrespect. I respect any man with stugatz enough to get in the ring.

That being said, I don't see much in most heavyweights of the 20s (Dempsey is a notable exception. I love his style in the early films). I accept arguments that defend them for what they were in their time, but I don't think it is fair (to them) to compare them to later heavyweights with more evolved styles. Firpo is simply not impressive to me.

BORKED

"Cute" would be the last word I'd use to describe Firpo. Firpo was clearly more comfortable clinching and throwing wide looping shots and uppercuts with a raised chin and a telegraph. He also was, as this film demonstrates, a lover of rabbit punches.
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Old 02-03-2008, 12:38 PM   #34
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

... Good to see you back, Spoon.
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Old 02-03-2008, 01:24 PM   #35
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
[thanks JT!]


---now we meet in agreement.


Which wasn't the point of my assertion. Dempsey was beautifully evasive in his aggression. In terms of systematic, technical know-how, Liston was better-schooled. I see Dempsey as relying more on speed/reflexes and flexibility.


In 1919, I'd say it was better. I am very impressed by his unique style in the sparring matches with Tate.

Dempsey really squandered his greatness in my opinion. The infrequency of his title defenses, his nouveu-rich lifestyle --you can see him losing a step between Willard and Gibbons and really deteriorating by the time Tunney got him.
I do not dispute any of the above observations.
Quote:
...By the way, Janitor, Jack Burke put him down twice in sparring before the Gibbons fight.... a left hook and a right cross. Would you like to change your mind about the chin question between he and Liston?
I retain an open mind on the question.

I consider the chins of both to be a bit of an unknown quantity.

Last edited by janitor; 02-03-2008 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 02-03-2008, 01:57 PM   #36
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
"Cute" would be the last word I'd use to describe Firpo. Firpo was clearly more comfortable clinching and throwing wide looping shots and uppercuts with a raised chin and a telegraph. He also was, as this film demonstrates, a lover of rabbit punches.
Perhaps cute is not the best word.

He was sneaky. He set little traps which is not a characteristic you would expect from a fighter with his style.
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Old 02-03-2008, 02:04 PM   #37
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Firpo was a rough fighter to watch, but he could and does in that very film execute some quite observant moves.

Now the efficiency of them is another question and they are not slick, but Luis did apply some sneaky little punches like uppercuts just before falling into the clinch and liked to experiment in the ring.

Ted Spoon concedes that 'cute' would not be the best word to some up Firpo, but he was a 'sly slugger', if you will.
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Old 02-03-2008, 02:28 PM   #38
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor


I do not dispute any of the above observations.


I retain an open mind on the question.

I consider the chins of both to be a bit of an unknown quantity.
Fair enough, detective!
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Old 02-03-2008, 02:29 PM   #39
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Perhaps cute is not the best word.

He was sneaky. He set little traps which is not a characteristic you would expect from a fighter with his style.
Okay.
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Old 02-03-2008, 02:33 PM   #40
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Spoon
Firpo was a rough fighter to watch, but he could and does in that very film execute some quite observant moves.

Now the efficiency of them is another question and they are not slick, but Luis did apply some sneaky little punches like uppercuts just before falling into the clinch and liked to experiment in the ring.

Ted Spoon concedes that 'cute' would not be the best word to some up Firpo, but he was a 'sly slugger', if you will.
I will.

I do like the way that he throws punches as if his life depended on it. It was really "do or die" for him and Dempsey which explains the everlasting popularity of their bout.

This picture is located in maybe a quarter of bars and pubs across the American northeast:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:02 PM   #41
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
I'll tell you this: Dempsey would connect on Liston's skull and Liston would be surprised by the force of it. Dempsey's relative smallness would make any modern HW think that he wasn't going to do much damage. I think that Dempsey's punching were the "shock and awe" type and the best of anyone under 200 pounds -ever. And that includes Roy Jones and Marciano. He punched on slings and pivots -he literally slinged (slung?) himself into those hooks and like old-school fighters would turn the fist around so that you got the back of the knuckles where there is less padding on the glove. Robinson did this with his right hooks to the body.
Indeed, Dempsey's style is one of great use of leverage, momentum and body weight and at the same time being defensive on the offensive. One could very well liken him to Duran in this regards, although I'd venture to say that Duran was more refined, more sophisticated in his use of defensive techniques whilst on the attack. That said, Dempsey literally slingshotting his whole being into each destructive blow is one reason why I'd hesitate to use the Liston v Williams bouts to prove the might of Sonny's chin. With the old school turning of the fist and the momentum used to strike, Dempsey's power doesn't penetrate flesh and bone like the blows of a slower, less pinpoint attacking Williams. Consider Mike Tyson and George Foreman for power and quality of their punches ... would it be fair to say that Dempsey's hooks could have an entirely different impact on Liston that the punches offered by Williams?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Potentially, yes, but prime Dempsey's head was like a bobble on a rubber band. Hard to hit and simultaneously rolling with the shot while gaining leverage to land his own.
And that, my friend, is why Dempsey must be rated at the pinnacle of HWs for headmovement ... certainly higher than Frazier and Marciano. However, coming forward against a brute like Foreman or even a Lennox, both of whom possessed vicious uppercuts ... regardless of the excellent headmovement, I can only see one outcome ... caught flush by a right uppercut, followed by a clean left hook.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
I think that Foreman would beat Dempsey easier than Liston would. It would be a clash yes... but if an enraged grizzly clashes with an enraged wolverine, its a foregone conclusion.
I agree on the assessment. Staring across the ring, Foreman may have appeared more daunting a task and the power and strength, as well as the pushing back of the shoulders and huge uppercut would all add up to dangerous obstacles for Dempsey. Foreman was also better at cutting off the ring than Liston so if Dempsey decided to box up on his toes and circle, which he was capable of, Foreman is more likely to impose himself than follow like a Liston could be prone to doing.

Enraged grizzly clashing with an enraged wolverine ... a most fitting image - kudos!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
The right and the short hooks would work for Liston, but Liston would be well-advised to launch these while rushing Dempsey and forcing him backwards. Liston will get nailed if he is launching anything from a stationary position.
I think that once Liston has forced him backwards, he simply has to overwhelm him. I don't see Dempsey taking a 10 count without grave damage being handed out, nor do I see the ref intervening to stop the bout whilst Dempsey still had the energy to scowl. I actually think that Liston could be at his most vulnerable when he has Dempsey hurt ... a wounded animal lashes out at speed and ferociously and a hurt Dempsey that is allowed an opportunity is a very dangerous Dempsey ...

Money on the table, who're you betting the house on, Stonehands?

Last edited by META5; 02-04-2008 at 02:29 AM.
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:24 PM   #42
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sardu
No non-americans are going to be for Dempsey. He was an american icon in the roaring 20's while Liston was the quintessential anti-hero or villian so to speak much later on. I personally think he seemed like an okay guy and there are too many myths and tall tales about Liston. Anyway, I stand by my opinion.


Let's get this out of the way now:

Senya - Liston KO 1 Dempsey
Snorlax - Liston KO in 30 seconds Dempsey
Amsterdam - (if he visits this thread) Dempsey faints from Liston's prefight scowl and starts weeping. His corner stops the fight before it happens.
While that's certainly not a BAD prediction, I think Snorlax has it correct with Liston KTFO Dempsey in 30 seconds.

Let's give him an award for best prediction of the year.
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:34 PM   #43
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Meta,

I'm taking Liston.

I believe that Liston would trust his chin and his brute strength and fight aggressively against the much lighter Dempsey like he did Floyd. He'd come in behind the jab, get close and hook to the bent body, or seeing that low left, he'd club him with that chopping right. Although Dempsey was far faster, I think that Liston could get explosive when he saw an opportunity and his shots were straighter and shorter; that would compensate a bit for the speed differential.

The Liston jab would be a distraction, but it wouldn't land much.

In a test of strength, it's no contest, and so I see Dempsey being forced backward. Therein lies the key to his defeat, as we agree.

But the Manassa Mauler would be slashing away like mad the whole time and he was probably more dangerous when hurt (see Firpo) or when he felt a sense of desperation. To wit., before fighting Willard, Dempsey couldn't help but be haunted by the thought of Willard going all those grueling rounds with Johnson in the hot Havana sun to outlast and dethrone the great champion. He decided that he is not even going to try to outlast him, he's gonna blitz him. And the damage he did to Willard's face is infamous. Lon Chaney couldn't have done it justice in one of his silent horror movies.

Liston would cover up and block most of these, but he's gonna get caught and I wouldn't be surprised if he's a bloody mess. But I'll say that 1959 Liston stops that "do or die" 1919 Dempsey.

I'd bet my [neighbor's] house on that, my friend.
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Old 02-04-2008, 12:39 PM   #44
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

James J Corbett: "In all my years I've never watched something as dreadful as this was to watch. I have finally gazed upon the worst."

Does anyone know which fight he was describing? I believe it was either Firpo-Willard or the Wills-Firpo fight. Thanks.
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Old 02-04-2008, 03:11 PM   #45
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Some solid arguments presented on both sides although I would favour Liston due to his style both sides make good points.
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