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Old 02-04-2008, 04:01 PM   #46
Sonny's jab
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

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Originally Posted by Sardu
James J Corbett: "In all my years I've never watched something as dreadful as this was to watch. I have finally gazed upon the worst."

Does anyone know which fight he was describing? I believe it was either Firpo-Willard or the Wills-Firpo fight. Thanks.
I think it was Wills-Firpo.
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Old 02-04-2008, 09:53 PM   #47
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
I think it was Wills-Firpo.

Thanks Sonny. Based on how those two fought you would have thought there would be fireworks. I believe Wills outworked Firpo to a dull decision win.
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Old 02-04-2008, 09:56 PM   #48
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Question - who had the best jab Dempsey ever faced (aside from Tunney, obviously)?

I just thought about this, alot of people are taking it into consideration that Liston's jab is a nonfactor, but is there any real empirical evidence to make us think this way?
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:19 AM   #49
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Liston has all the advantages minus speed and stamina BUT Liston had very underated speed and more compact punches than Dempsey. Listons speed and compact accurate punches was a reason he could KO his man so fast.

Listons reach will be a massive factor in this match up. As will his compact punches and with his massive reach finds it very easy to land jabs and right hands. When he lands Dempsey backs up and Liston moves in with combinations to the body and head

If Dempsey looks to rush Liston as he often tried to rush he would get chopped down by massive counter shots because Dempsey was far too open in many of his attacks and that was why a club fighter like Firpo could knock him down. Liston would finnish him off under similar circumstances

Dempsey would look to move in and slip and counter, which would make it an interesting contest but Liston would be much harder to counter and would counter himself when Dempsey throws.

People read far too much about Dempsey from his KO wins over strongmen with NO DEFENSE. Dempsey simply could not fight that way against fighters with boxing skill. As shown against the better light heavyweights of his time

Liston by KO 5 with far too much of an arsenal, reach, jab for Dempsey to cope with. Although I would not be suprised if Liston took him out much earlier because of the styles.
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:20 AM   #50
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

If Liston QUIT while sitting down against the light hitting Ali in 1964.....take Dempsey in this one!!!
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Old 02-05-2008, 07:03 AM   #51
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89
I'd bet my [neighbor's] house on that, my friend.
Has your neighbour forgiven you for the time you bet his house on Mike Tyson beating James Douglas?
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Old 02-05-2008, 02:40 PM   #52
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

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Originally Posted by RockyJim
If Liston QUIT while sitting down against the light hitting Ali in 1964.....take Dempsey in this one!!!
Based on that logic Liston would also quit against: Patterson, Williams, Folley, Valdez
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Old 02-05-2008, 03:19 PM   #53
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

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Originally Posted by janitor
Has your neighbour forgiven you for the time you bet his house on Mike Tyson beating James Douglas?
Guess what -I kept an open mind with that one because Douglas was inspired as hell and Tyson was not and Douglas had the tools that were demonstrably more problematic for Mike -size, long jab, skill.

After round 1 ended, I kicked myself and then made calls to place bets on Douglas -and had no takers.

If you are good and get to heaven when you die and God forgive my legions of sins when I throw a 7, we'll make bets with each other. To begin with, no WW from before 1920 will beat Robinson, Leonard, Gavilan, or Hearns over 15. Holyfield will defeat Fitzsimmons with relative ease over 15. Anything else?
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Old 02-05-2008, 03:54 PM   #54
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Guess what -I kept an open mind with that one because Douglas was inspired as hell and Tyson was not and Douglas had the tools that were demonstrably more problematic for Mike -size, long jab, skill.

After round 1 ended, I kicked myself and then made calls to place bets on Douglas -and had no takers.
Quite impresive.

Quote:
If you are good and get to heaven when you die and God forgive my legions of sins when I throw a 7, we'll make bets with each other. To begin with, no WW from before 1920 will beat Robinson, Leonard, Gavilan, or Hearns over 15. Holyfield will defeat Fitzsimmons with relative ease over 15. Anything else?
Battling Nelson will defeat Floyd Mayweather over 45 rounds with a sadistic referre.

Jim Jeffries will beat anybody from 1920 onwards in a finish fight under the rules of his era.

Harry Greb will beat anybody today from 200lbs down.

The cruiserweight version of Evander Holyfield beats the heavyweight version in a catchweight fight.

Any takers?
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:27 PM   #55
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

I might pick David Haye of a year ago to beat Greb, but only because I think today's Haye is too weight-drained to get under 200lbs. Which Greb are we talking about?

Heavyweight near-prime Evander Holyfield manhandles, roughhouses, and stops his younger self. I'd need time to fully consider it, but I think that heavyweight Holyfield could beat Jeffries, even under his rules.

I'd pick Riddick Bowe, George Foreman, and Lennox Lewis to beat Jeffries, too. Those are the only three that stand out in particular to me.
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:31 PM   #56
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Battling Nelson will defeat Floyd Mayweather over 45 rounds with a sadistic referre.
I'm with you! Floyd is one modern fighter who I do not believe would do well against the rough and devil-may-care bruisers of the distant past over 12 or 15. Guys today are passive compared to those starving tazmanians like Nelson.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Jim Jeffries will beat anybody from 1920 onwards in a finish fight under the rules of his era.
Possibly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Harry Greb will beat anybody today from 200lbs down.
Over 15? I would disagree, unless you had a referee as blind as he was. I'm not sure if he would have even beaten Tunney that one time if the ref was doing his job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
The cruiserweight version of Evander Holyfield beats the heavyweight version in a catchweight fight.
Nah --not the one in the Dokes fight.
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:32 PM   #57
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by radianttwilight
I might pick David Haye of a year ago to beat Greb, but only because I think today's Haye is too weight-drained to get under 200lbs. Which Greb are we talking about?
Peak Greb

I said today so it is up to Haye to make weight if he wants this fight.

Quote:
Heavyweight near-prime Evander Holyfield manhandles, roughhouses, and stops his younger self.
I bet he gets outworked and outpointed.

Quote:
I'd need time to fully consider it, but I think that heavyweight Holyfield could beat Jeffries, even under his rules.
I think that his stamina becomes a key factor if it gets past 12 rounds.

Quote:
I'd pick Riddick Bowe, George Foreman, and Lennox Lewis to beat Jeffries, too. Those are the only three that stand out in particular to me.
Interesting and perhaps inspired picks.

You are presumably looking for sombody to wear him out faster than he can wear them out which is smart.

Jeffries wrestling background combined with the fact that wrestling moves are tolerated in this era might get him out of your little trap.
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:42 PM   #58
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

[quote=janitor]
Quote:

1) Peak Greb. I said today so it is up to Haye to make weight if he wants this fight.

2) I bet he gets outworked and outpointed.

3) I think that his stamina becomes a key factor if it gets past 12 rounds.
1) Greb's weight fluctuated alot throughout his career. If we're talking 155-160lb Greb, I'd pick Haye over him without much hesistance, even if he does have some problems making weight.

2) That's the other likely scenario, but remember, this is Evander Holyfield - A man who cannot avoid the brawl if his life depends on it

3) Maybe I misunderstood your question? If "finish fight" means it continues until somebody gets KO'd (as I thought it did), then I would have my money on Holyfield to knock him out inside of twelve rounds. I'm assuming Jeffries' gameplan would be to physically dominate Holyfield like he did his other opponents, but there's a real serious problem here - Jeffries couldn't dominate supermiddleweight Fitz, who wasn't even considered a physical powerhouse among men of his weight. How can he overpower an iron-chinned guy that's his size and that may well be physically stronger (albeit, with the possible assistance of steroids)?
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:42 PM   #59
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
I'm with you! Floyd is one modern fighter who I do not believe would do well against the rough and devil-may-care bruisers of the distant past over 12 or 15. Guys today are passive compared to those starving tazmanians like Nelson.

Possibly.
We certainly have some interesting "what ifs" here.

Quote:
Over 15? I would disagree, unless you had a referee as blind as he was. I'm not sure if he would have even beaten Tunney that one time if the ref was doing his job.
Greb didnt just beat Tunney in the first fight he shut him out.

He didnt just beat Tunney once either.

When you cut through the cr4p blind Greb clearly won fights 1 and 2 with 3 and 4 clearly going to Tunney. Historians are split on fight 4.

So depending on which papers you follow Greb is 2-3, 3-2, or 2-2-1 against Tunney


Quote:
Nah --not the one in the Dokes fight.
I might have to watch that fight before responding.
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:47 PM   #60
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Default Re: The Manassa Mauler-Jack Dempsey (July 4,1919) vs Sonny Liston (March 21,1959)who wins

[quote=janitor]
Quote:

Interesting and perhaps inspired picks.

You are presumably looking for sombody to wear him out faster than he can wear them out which is smart.

Jeffries wrestling background combined with the fact that wrestling moves are tolerated in this era might get him out of your little trap.
Ah, that was only part of the equation. These three in particular stood out because they, in addition to being physical powerhouses, have extremely lethal offences.

I don't doubt that Foreman could out-muscle and bomb away at Jeffries until he tired, but it's certainly Jeff's game after that point.

Bowe is/was such a terrific, powerful infighter that he could use his size and strength to pull a number on a smaller opponent. Look at what he did to Holyfield, who certainly is among the most physical men of the modern era, in their trilogy.

Lewis stands out because he has the premier long-range arsenal of the superheavyweights, in addition to his size. I don't think Jeffries would be able to handle such a big, skilled man with long, straight punches like Lewis'. I'm banking on an early/mid stoppage in this scenario.
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