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Old 11-15-2012, 02:34 PM   #1
shommel
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Default how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

does anyone have any news clippings fom that era and time describing the fight/ sure would like to read them. thanks
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Old 11-15-2012, 03:25 PM   #2
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

periodically this thread keeps popping up. How many times can we beat a dead horse?
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Old 11-15-2012, 04:45 PM   #3
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

I know crusading sportswriter Dan Parker made a joke about actors equity but I cant recall the gist of it.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

LaMotta fought with a serious injury. No dive. End of thread.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:27 PM   #5
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

It was a dive. Why would you say it wasnt?

Have you ever seen the Kefauver hearings? Why would LaMotta have put himself through that, on top of possible mob retribution, if he had such a sound excuse as a serious injury?

LaMotta took a ton of heat for that and spent many years (until Raging Bull) as a pariah.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:31 PM   #6
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

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Originally Posted by john garfield View Post
periodically this thread keeps popping up. How many times can we beat a dead horse?
An unlimited amount of times. The poor bugger is defenseless, J.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:46 PM   #7
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Is one dive any faker than another dive? A dive is a dive, fake is fake.

Lamotta vs Fox was fake. It seems pretty clear that Lamotta threw the fight. Would Lamotta have beaten Fox if it was on the up and up? I think so, the accounts and the quality of the two fighters suggests he would have. But from what I've read there's no real consensus about whether the fight was as blatan as Raging Bull suggests. So articles say it was, others say Fox could have competed.

Again, I can't claim to know, but a lot of the other guys who fought Fox praised him as being a lot better than his reputation would have suggested. Lesnevich in particular praised Fox's punching power.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:00 AM   #8
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

The report of the fight contradicts LaMotta's words that he was not punching back. He couldn't fight in his usual rushing style due to serious injury which he and his doctor concealed from the boxing commission, but which was found out during post-fight investigation. The injury made it difficult to throw any punches at all. There's little reason to trust the words of a person like LaMotta, when the facts contradict that version. LaMotta's brother up until now (when there's no danger whatsoever of a revenge from the mafia) still hasn't confirmed that he arranged a fix.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:38 AM   #9
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Haven't you guys seen raging bull? one of the greatest movies of all time. It covers the lamotta-fox story.


"your motha sucks f*cking big f*cking elephant dicks" "You know why they robbed you? Because there miserable f*cks and there motthaass take it up the ass"
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:16 AM   #10
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
Haven't you guys seen raging bull? one of the greatest movies of all time. It covers the lamotta-fox story.


"your motha sucks f*cking big f*cking elephant dicks" "You know why they robbed you? Because there miserable f*cks and there motthaass take it up the ass"
this
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:30 AM   #11
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

So you base that bold assertion, that it wasnt faked, because LaMotta actually threw punches? Please explain to me why before hand the word was out that LaMotta was going to throw the fight, why he would admit to throwing the fight later (and his injury, a damaged spleen, was part of it) and go through with the incredibly demeaning testimony and possible reprisals (and if you scoff at that you dont know what you are talking about).

So Joey not confirming or denying it to this day is proof? Joey died over twenty years ago so there is no way for him to confirm it "really up unti now."

You dont trust LaMotta, who had far more to lose than gain by saying it, then go read some of Foxes interviews later in life where he denied knowledge of any of the fixes but admitted after the fact that most of his fights had, in hindsight, been prearranged.

Lamotta had other losses, why lie about this one? When he could have just said he had an injury and was fighting a bigger younger guy? Why not lie about Kilgore too, or any other loss. Why not just say he was injured instead of creating a huge lie that ultimately got him in far more trouble and could have potentially threatened his well being?

No, your dismissal makes no sense.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:37 AM   #12
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

They must have really found a gigantic gorilla on a deserted island then in the 1930s, if we go by one of the greatest movies of all time?
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:49 AM   #13
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

There were rumors and very similar big shift in betting odds prior to Billy Fox's first bout with Gus Lesnevich, too. There were a lot of rumors back then, it was nothing unusual.

What's so terrible in admitting a supposed fake some 12 or 13 years after the fight had taken place and he was retired for 6 years? He ****ing admitted being a rapist and a murderer (even though the person didn't die in the end), "admitting" a fight fixed by the mafia was nothing big compared to that.

Whenever Joey LaMotta died, he had several decades to comfirm that story. He had not, even though there was no danger, and he couldn't hurt Jake's reputation any more. Quite probably because he was a more honest person than Jake, and didn't want to confirm a lie.

Having an injury certainly explains relative lack of LaMotta's rushing/punching style a lot better than a fix. But the injury wasn't mentioned at all as a possible explanation of his actions in that fight during the 1960 investigation, it was all about mafia.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:42 AM   #14
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
There were rumors and very similar big shift in betting odds prior to Billy Fox's first bout with Gus Lesnevich, too. There were a lot of rumors back then, it was nothing unusual.

What's so terrible in admitting a supposed fake some 12 or 13 years after the fight had taken place and he was retired for 6 years? He ****ing admitted being a rapist and a murderer (even though the person didn't die in the end), "admitting" a fight fixed by the mafia was nothing big compared to that.

Whenever Joey LaMotta died, he had several decades to comfirm that story. He had not, even though there was no danger, and he couldn't hurt Jake's reputation any more. Quite probably because he was a more honest person than Jake, and didn't want to confirm a lie.

Having an injury certainly explains relative lack of LaMotta's rushing/punching style a lot better than a fix. But the injury wasn't mentioned at all as a possible explanation of his actions in that fight during the 1960 investigation, it was all about mafia.
You dont know what you are talking about Senya. The injury was mentioned during his testimony.

Why would you say he had nothing to fear in 1960? In fact he was very scared about reprisal in 1960 as he stated in his second book.

I think you make the case for me with your comment about Jakes numerous admissions. Yes he admitted to being a rapist, among other heinous acts. He also admitted when he was fairly beaten. Why lie about Fox?

Do you know anything about organized crime? You think they just forget things like this? No. I know people in my area who had dealings with organized crime more than fifty years ago and still wont talk about it for fear of what might happen.

You say the press reports dont match the stories of the bout but it was the press that prompted the investigation, fine, and resulting ban into LaMotta. At the fight Eddie Eagan said he thought it looked like it was on the up and up. The press screamed loud and long about how ridiculous the fight looked prompting an investigation.

There is also the little matter of the betting odds which the day before the fight were even. A massive influx of "smart money" flooded in at the last minute betting Fox all the way up to a 3-1 favorite. Thats a significant shift.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:14 AM   #15
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Default Re: how fake was the lamotta vs fox dive?

Give me exact date and newspaper in June 1960 where the injury is mentioned?

In fact, he repudiated his statements about Palermo, Daly and Milo, which he told to the officials the previous year. He said he didn't remember names and everything was arranged by Joey. Joey was summoned as witness, but invoked the 5th amendment, refusing to testify. Graziano testified in 1947 that he was offered $100,000 too to throw the bout with Ruben Shank, as well as the same sum in 1945 vs Bummy Davis. Didn't get killed or anything.

Two commissions looked into that bout after it had taken place, and neither found anything except the injury that he concealed. Why would Palermo offer Jake $100,000 to throw that fight (or the Janiro fight earlier that year) and why would he not only refuse to accept that but even pay his own $20,000 to get a title shot in the future?

LaMotta was banned not because they found anything strange about the fight.

The odds changed to 3-to-1, wow, mafia won a lot of money by betting on the favorite? I think the Ring magazine stated there was a similar shift of betting odds prior to Fox's first fight with Lesnevich, where the odds went even higher in Fox's favor.
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