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Old 11-16-2012, 08:29 AM   #151
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post

Vitali is awkward impossible to establish a rhythm against, Wlad is technically incredibly with concussive power, they have good speed of hand and foot(Wlad) for men their size, and above all, they have tremendous smart and ring IQ.
Okay...I gotta ask, since strangely nobody has yet. Given your dealings with the brothers, which beats which? At their respective primes...

Straight up. Vitali or Wlad? Please answer.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:00 AM   #152
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in HW boxing histor

He's said Wlad would batter Vitali a few times
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:46 AM   #153
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in HW boxing histor

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He's said Wlad would batter Vitali a few times
Bugger.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:05 PM   #154
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post
I recognize that Wlad presents difficult obstacles -men that size usually do if they have command of the fundamentals. I have sparred myself with giants and it isn't easy; but they are in fact slower than smaller men, and they are not technicians (with a few exceptions). They rely on a few simple principles that are tough to overcome -and a lot tougher if you fight them at the wrong range and in the wrong way like so many of his opponents tend to do.

Wlad will not meet anyone. He gets a pass for it and it's a pass I understand, but to call him the world champion anyway only emphasizes the disarray that boxing is in. The sport doesn't even have rules of succession that it stands by.

Wlad is the premiere heavyweight of his era. In some ways, that is a greater complement than calling him a world champion.
Being the premier fighter is thr most important thing for me when ranking a fighters worth.

A champion is a globally subjective term which has different meanings for different people. For you it's 1v2, for some it's unification for others it's merely to hold a belt. However I can always make my pick for the best fighter in the world at a given time. That's the one thing I can do regardless of era, politics or dodgey decisions.

I do respect your quest for clarity. I just can't respect an organisation referring to Briggs as a champ but not wlad. Each to their own eh?
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:23 PM   #155
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Okay...I gotta ask, since strangely nobody has yet. Given your dealings with the brothers, which beats which? At their respective primes...

Straight up. Vitali or Wlad? Please answer.
Wlad would do Vitali dirty, and Vitali even privately agrees.

Vitali's style is predicated on three things, you understand: Range, containing his opponents, and his ability to angle any shot. He pokes and prods with his left as often as he throws a real jab, to disguise his right hand and the cover steps to his left, he leans straight back to dodge punches, because it incentivizes an opponent to keep coming, which allows him to respond with right hands or a left hook from the hip that they bear into, and he holds himself.

Wlad is faster of hand and foot, he has the far superior left jab, and he tees up with his right hand. Vitali wouldn't be able to lean out of the way; See the Wach fight, Wlad would land time and again. Vitali wouldn't be able to contain Wlad; His little brother is his physical match in the clinch, and while not as tough, is just as, if not more, dogged. We called him the octopus only half to rile him up, he's literally next to impossible to shake. Wlad's height and command of his own range would make Vitali's favored angles and his up and down way of accessing them utterly ineffective. Can't throw the hookercut, can't circle the right hand(Wlad would come over with a left hook, and used to do it in sparring so often when they were kids Vitali had a nickname for it), and wouldn't have a clear shot at the counter left hooks he loves.

So, basically, outboxing and overpowering Wlad is right out. He'd lose a stand-up scratch and peck boxing match just off of being the slower, inferior fundamentalist alone. His only approach left would be to "march forward" and fight Wlad; This romantic notion held by boxing fans that tough chinned, big hearted fighters can just decide to shrug off punishment and march forward, come hell or high water, to brawl on the inside or near mid-range, by God.

Thing is, Vitali has never been a fighter; He can be aggressive, but he's too awkward and his linear footwork sucks for a big man. In the Corrie Sanders fight, he eventually settled into doling out an ass beating because he realized his optimal range, he found a way to stay in it, and he just punched until the referee waved his arms. When he tried to come forward and attack, Sanders was drilling him very, very hard, wobbling him, and forcing him backwards. Vitali might be able to bring the action, but he can't brawl; His shoddy advances would be entirely neutralized by his brothers jab.

This is my estimation, honestly. I can't say much else, beyond giving credit where it is do and affirming that both brothers treated me very roughly. Two worst ass kickings of my life, I would estimate. Vitali is a badass, and one of the most underrated rubix cubes in all of boxing, that style is so awkward and their is no rhythm, and his timing is seriously otherwordly. Wlad is just the whole package, though. In that way, he is Lennox Lewis' true succesor, in my book.

Singing the praises of fighters who are a lot better than I am is hard, understand. Pride is involved. But the K Bros are class acts, just like Lennox Lewis was, and if they can treat me with honor, respect, and deference I'm not sure I earned from them in the ring, then by God, I'm gonna be honest about how badass I think they all are.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:28 PM   #156
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post
If you want to train for speed, you don't go finding a big man. That's plain. Wlad's speed is nothing like the vast majority of welterweights -who I always found tougher to handle than heavies -because of the speed. Not to mention the better technique that you could almost always assume correctly.

Wlad is objectively good with distance and commanding space. Giants learn that first. And yes his legs move well -for a big man. Sure. But he has not been tested by this sorry lot we have today, including Haye. I don't have to watch their fights against Wlad to note how amateurish they are.

Wlad's skills are not even close to even Bowe's skills, particularly in Holyfield I. Not even close. He has a basic game plan with a few simple nuances added in now and then that work well, given his size. But he is not a technician. That's just a damn fact.
I'm sorry but I think you're plain wrong about Wlad, especially regarding his skills vs Bowe, who tends to get rather overrated based on his strong showing against Evander. Is his speed as great as a welterweight? Uh, no, but it's perfectly acceptable for a heavyweight, even compared to a relatively small heavyweight like Haye. Is he amateurish? Absolutely not.

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but the biggest problem I see with detractors of Wlad is that they think of him as first and foremost as a giant in the vein of Carnera, Willard and co, only with better boxing ability (if they even accept that much). Wlad isn't a giant who can box, he's a boxer who's naturally huge. That's a slight but very important difference.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:30 PM   #157
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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I'm sorry but I think you're plain wrong about Wlad, especially regarding his skills vs Bowe, who tends to get rather overrated based on his strong showing against Evander. Is his speed as great as a welterweight? Uh, no, but it's perfectly acceptable for a heavyweight, even compared to a relatively small heavyweight like Haye. Is he amateurish? Absolutely not.

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but the biggest problem I see with detractors of Wlad is that they think of him as first and foremost as a giant in the vein of Carnera, Willard and co, only with better boxing ability (if they even accept that much). Wlad isn't a giant who can box, he's a boxer who's naturally huge.
Bowe couldn't throw a straight right hand to save his life. His overhand right? For a heavyweight that size, looping a big ol fastball like Bowe did 90% he wasn't throwing an uppercut from that hand is just straight ugly.

I agree with you to about the boxer thing, mate. I'm only a couple inches shorter than Wlad, I have a longer reach, and our boxing styles could not be more different. Being huge doesn't predicate a fighting style. It just doesn't. I'm just as big, if not bigger, and almost as tall, and I was taught to fight the same way the flyweights who stood up to me abs were.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:34 PM   #158
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
Bowe couldn't throw a straight right hand to save his life. His overhand right? For a heavyweight that size, looping a big ol fastball like Bowe did 90% he wasn't throwing an uppercut from that hand is just straight ugly.
Bowe was a tough and game fighter, with decent speed, good combination punching, and a great ability to absorb punishment without it drastically affecting his game.

But like you said, he was stylistically ugly, with a lack of sharpness and tightness in his punching, and a fundamental lack of understanding in how to make his size count against smaller fighters.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:37 PM   #159
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Originally Posted by Absolutely! View Post
Bowe was a tough and game fighter, with decent speed, good combination punching, and a great ability to absorb punishment without it drastically affecting his game.

But like you said, he was stylistically ugly, with a lack of sharpness and tightness in his punching, and a fundamental lack of understanding in how to make his size count against smaller fighters.
This is about my criticism.

I do believe that Bowe was a bit fortunate to be fighting Evander Holyfield for the title, a fighter who would always be very, very well matched with his strengths. I've never been convinced Riddick would have found his way to the title had Iron Mike or Lennox Lewis been champion instead.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:44 PM   #160
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
This is about my criticism.

I do believe that Bowe was a bit fortunate to be fighting Evander Holyfield for the title, a fighter who would always be very, very well matched with his strengths. I've never been convinced Riddick would have found his way to the title had Iron Mike or Lennox Lewis been champion instead.
I think Lennox would have beaten Bowe for the simple fact that he knew how to make his size count whereas Bowe didn't. I think Wlad would have beaten Bowe for the same reason. Tyson, who also had a very good sense of distance, though it was obviously different for him being shorter, would have had a reasonably good chance of beating Bowe as well, though he would maybe have had a bit of a rougher time of it on the inside.

Evander was a hell of a fighter, but against Bowe he simply faced a similar fighter who happened to be bigger and stronger than he was, a fighter who could match him strength for strength and fought in more or less the same way. That's why I believe he was beaten.

Against a skilled big man in Golota, Bowe came a cropper, and I don't believe for a second that it was due to his being past his prime. Golota simply had his number.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:45 PM   #161
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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I think Lennox would have beaten Bowe for the simple fact that he knew how to make his size count whereas Bowe didn't. I think Wlad would have beaten Bowe for the same reason. Tyson, who also had a very good sense of distance, though it was obviously different for him being shorter, would have had a reasonably good chance of beating Bowe as well, though he would maybe have had a bit of a rougher time of it on the inside.

Evander was a hell of a fighter, but against Bowe he simply faced a similar fighter who happened to be bigger and stronger than he was, a fighter who could match him strength for strength and fought in more or less the same way. That's why I believe he was beaten.

Against a skilled big man in Golota, Bowe came a cropper, and I don't believe for a second that it was due to his being past his prime. Golota simply had his number.
Golota was better than Bowe in every conceivable category, terrific boxer.

He was just an utter headcase, and had no business as a professional fighter.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:54 PM   #162
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
Golota was better than Bowe in every conceivable category, terrific boxer.

He was just an utter headcase, and had no business as a professional fighter.
I wouldn't say he had no business being a professional fighter, but he would have certainly been an atrocious excuse for a champion had he ever won a world title. The man had no consistency or ability to control his more street fighterish tendencies when things weren't going his way.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:56 PM   #163
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Wlad maybe 'fights big' but I've noticed he doesn't 'fight tall'. He tends to crouch down to his opponents, and hangs his chin out there a bit, perhaps to draw them in to his jab.
Yeah, I have noticed that but as someone said, he seems to have gone away from it.

I never meant to say Bowe wasn't skilled just that he wasn't a very smart operator, even when in shape. Folks drool over him trading inside and getting that crazy leverage on his punches... which was impressive. It just wasn't the smartest tendency to fall into every fight. And he was really unimpressive in a lot of fights... Tubbs, Coetzee, Golota... I think he is a bit overrated.
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Old 11-16-2012, 04:01 PM   #164
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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Yeah, I have noticed that but as someone said, he seems to have gone away from it.

I never meant to say Bowe wasn't skilled just that he wasn't a very smart operator, even when in shape. Folks drool over him trading inside and getting that crazy leverage on his punches... which was impressive. It just wasn't the smartest tendency to fall into every fight. And he was really unimpressive in a lot of fights... Tubbs, Coetzee, Golota... I think he is a bit overrated.
Wlad fights tall when he needs to fight tall, when he wants to bait an opponent in he does the crouching low hands thing. It's a matter of understanding an adapting to your opponent, something which Bowe was unable to do.
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Old 11-16-2012, 04:02 PM   #165
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Default Re: Wladimir Klitschko now holds the record for the longest reign in heavyweight boxi

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I wouldn't say he had no business being a professional fighter, but he would have certainly been an atrocious excuse for a champion had he ever won a world title. The man had no consistency or ability to control his more street fighterish tendencies when things weren't going his way.
Million dollar body, 10 cent brain. And a natural born thug if tales from the old world are to be believed.

And remember, he did beat Ruiz. That decision was a sham.

I remember watching the first Bowe fight with some pretty bright friends. We were all amazed how he was beating Riddick to the jab.
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