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Old 11-11-2012, 07:30 PM   #16
BillB
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract'

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Originally Posted by Theron View Post
I really do not think both fights were predetermined the second one maybe but not the first, why would Sonny take a beating like that without quitting earlier, and his corner were trying to get him back out and you could see the disapointment on Sonny's face

Best guess.
The money was in the rematch.
Liston's handlers wanted Liston to lose at 8-1, but didn't want it to look like a dive and threaten the gate for the rematch.
If Liston had laid down in the 1st or 2nd round, no one would have believed it. Especially against a dink like Clay.

As it turned out, what he did looked just as bad, but it wasn't planned that way.

In the second fight it didn't matter what it looked like. There wasn't going to be a rematch.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:02 PM   #17
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract'

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Originally Posted by BillB View Post
Best guess.
The money was in the rematch.
Liston's handlers wanted Liston to lose at 8-1, but didn't want it to look like a dive and threaten the gate for the rematch.
If Liston had laid down in the 1st or 2nd round, no one would have believed it. Especially against a dink like Clay.

As it turned out, what he did looked just as bad, but it wasn't planned that way.

In the second fight it didn't matter what it looked like. There wasn't going to be a rematch.
So you watch the first fight and you see a fix? Buy some glasses and watch it again. Just incredible.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:34 PM   #18
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract'

Houdini,,,,,,,

Sir, you're out of your element.

Sonny Liston and Team signed more than '5' contracts with Cassius Clay and Team
for their February 1964 bout.

If or when, Sonny Liston 'lost', he could 'not' have another bout before fighting the
rematch with Cassius Clay, which was supposed to take place before the end of
November 1964 (270-days).

William Faversham Jr. had that contract 'signed and sealed'.

Otherwise, I-C-P, Inc. and Sonny Liston would forfeit their rights to promotional
contracts with Cassius Clay and LSG, Inc.
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Old 11-11-2012, 08:54 PM   #19
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract'

Only a true "mark" like the illustrious Houdini would state that the idea that the first Liston-Clay fight was beyond question as a work. My wife, who knows nothing about boxing (which likely moves her past Houdini on the knowledge scale) was watching casually a replay on ESPN Classics once upon a time. I asked her what she thought. She watched for a couple minutes and said "it looks like the older guy is trying not to hurt Ali. He's not going all the way through with his punches, is he?"

Point. Set. Match.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:28 PM   #20
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract'

Never been involved with a boxing board this inept. So Ali beat up on Liston for 6 rounds, cut him severely, staggered him several times but no it's a fix. Watch the fight young and inexperienced one.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:33 PM   #21
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract'

Setting up multiple contracts is nothing new. You can find this all through boxing history. Again as you always do you take an event and twist it to make some totally wacked out point. all without ever posting avid sources. Incredibly some on here are so void of boxing knowledge believe your lies. I have 40 years as a boxing historian....your not fooling anyone who knows the game well.
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Old 11-11-2012, 10:00 PM   #22
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract'

Fact,,,,,

November 17, 1964

William Faversham Jr. (Manager of Cassius Clay and President of the LSG, Inc.)
announced that the Clay vs. Liston II 'rematch' will be postponed 6-to-9 months.

Mr. Faversham, stated the he will revise the fight contract between Cassius Clay
and Sonny Liston, so that the former Champion may have 'one tune-up' bout in 1965,
so that Liston does not have to sit around and wait.

The original contract, did not allow for Sonny Liston to have any sanctioned bouts
before the rematch on November 16, 1964.

This was from the original October 1963 signed contract.

Nobody had ever heard of the 'no fight for Sonny Liston clause' before, because it
was part of the 'secretive contract'.
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Old 11-11-2012, 10:10 PM   #23
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract'

Senor,
How deeply was Clay involved in the fix?

Was he heavily involved or was the unknowing useful idiot?
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Old 11-11-2012, 10:29 PM   #24
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract'

Nothing you have posted points to any fix. Watching the fight there is no sense of a fix. LisTon had a huge cut bleeding profusely on his cheekbone, a broken nose and a slight fracture of his eye orbital when the fight was over. Ali staggered Liston several times during the fight. It was the case of a young up and coming all time great beating an old never an all time great champion. Happens all the time throughout boxing history. Liston does not rank with Ali on any level as a fighter aside from punching power. Speed kills.
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:59 AM   #25
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract'

Liston was nothing close to "staggered" during the fight. Be serious. And if he did take a dive, which would be a more reasonable hypothesis than not, taking a few punches is part of the role.

There are some people who live in the "land of milk and honey" where boxing is concerned and simply don't want to acknowledge that it is a sport which was ripe with the influence of organized crime (point #1), gambling (point #2), crooked promoters (point #3), and whose foundation is for the fighters and their managers to make money (point #4).

Anyone that doesn't want to live in a self-induced fairytale land where every fight is a true manly test of courage and heart where no one would besmirch the perfect dignity of the great sport of boxing that is run by saints and priests can see that all four of these elements are at play in Clay-Liston I.

Sonny couldn't get fights, couldn't make money, handled by the mob, 7-1 odds, etc, etc, etc. It would take a greater leap of faith to believe that fight was legit than not, but sacred cows (which Pepe' takes delight in trying to topple over) are hard to let go of.

If Liston DIDN'T take a dive, then he was all of a sudden inhabited by the spirit of angels or just plain stupid. (which he was far from, being a hustler from the get-go) He could make a gigantic payoff betting against himself and get a guaranteed rematch and do the same thing again! If I had been his manager, hell, I might have suggested the idea to him. Where was he going to go after he beat Clay to make any money? Nobody even wanted him to fight in their state, nevertheless having an opponent that he could draw flies with.
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Old 11-12-2012, 03:43 AM   #26
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract'

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
...are you trying to tell me this animal signed a re-match contract before a HW world title fight? That is insane.
Its insane if you are guillible enough to believe anything Pepe posts on Muhammad Ali.
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:05 AM   #27
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract'

yes this is how stupid myths start - by some obsessive clown spreading nonsense around to suit his own personal agenda. a rematch clause - big fukin deal. liston could never beat ali - he was too slow to catch him! patterson stayed in punching range and started trading - big mistake floyd. anyone who thinks the first fight was fixed is crazy. ali would always have sonny boy's number.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:33 AM   #28
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract'

What threads like this really illustrate is that there isn't a scrap of evidence of a fix in this fight. If there was, it wouldn't be necessary to try and make something out of the fact that there was a return bout clause in the contract (very commonplace at the time).

But of course, people will believe what they want to believe.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:02 AM   #29
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract'

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillB View Post
Best guess.
The money was in the rematch.
Liston's handlers wanted Liston to lose at 8-1, but didn't want it to look like a dive and threaten the gate for the rematch.
If Liston had laid down in the 1st or 2nd round, no one would have believed it. Especially against a dink like Clay.

As it turned out, what he did looked just as bad, but it wasn't planned that way.

In the second fight it didn't matter what it looked like. There wasn't going to be a rematch.
There are zero reports of big bundles of late money being laid on Ali for the first fight and there was no late shift of odds that would have indicated it,and even if there were, there is considerably more money to be made in having the title than in selling it.Thats LOGIC.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:04 AM   #30
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Default Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
Fact,,,,,

November 17, 1964

William Faversham Jr. (Manager of Cassius Clay and President of the LSG, Inc.)
announced that the Clay vs. Liston II 'rematch' will be postponed 6-to-9 months.

Mr. Faversham, stated the he will revise the fight contract between Cassius Clay
and Sonny Liston, so that the former Champion may have 'one tune-up' bout in 1965,
so that Liston does not have to sit around and wait.

The original contract, did not allow for Sonny Liston to have any sanctioned bouts
before the rematch on November 16, 1964.

This was from the original October 1963 signed contract.

Nobody had ever heard of the 'no fight for Sonny Liston clause' before, because it
was part of the 'secretive contract'.
" Fairy tales can come true,it can happen to you". Frank Sinatra
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