Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract'

[Senor Pepe']

Originally Posted by BillB

Senor,
How deeply was Clay involved in the fix?

Was he heavily involved or was the unknowing useful idiot?

Bill B,

Cassius wasn't that smart to devise this scheme, it was all negotiated
between Robert Nilon, Jack Nilon and Sonny Liston (Liston Team) and
William Faversham (Louisville Sponsoring Group of the Cassius Clay Team).

Money.....

The only place that the bout could take place was Miami Beach, as
every other Boxing Commission would not allow the bout to be staged
in their State, after finding out about multiple fight contracts, and
Liston's obvious connections to 'that crowd'.

A) Cassius Clay would score a 'major upset' by defeating Sonny Liston,
in a bout wrapped up in controversy, setting the stage and buying public
into wanting a rematch.

B) A rematch would be set for anywhere from September 1964 thru November 1964 - and in Las Vegas.

C) With so much controversy, Nevada and 47 other States turn down
the bout, claiming 'something isn't Kosher with this'.

D) Even Miami Beach (Cassius Clay's home base) doesn't want it.

E) Sonny Liston was supposed to win the 1964 Rematch, with more
controversy, leading for a 'third match' in 1965.

F) The money to be made, was not 'betting money', but the rights to the
promotions, and the lucrative closed circuit revenue.

For anyone to state that the fight in Miami Beach in February 1964 was on the up-and-up,
please answer this question ...

Why did 29 of 29 State Boxing Commissions ban the rematch from participating in their state.
Even Kentucky, (Mr. Clay's home state) banned the rematch.

I guess they all were misinformed...........

[Lord Tywin]

More lies and bullshit.

If Ali-Liston 1 was fixed ahead of time by some secret imaginary contract why did Liston spike his gloves to blind Ali and win? Doesnt really make sense does it?

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by Lord Tywin

More lies and bullshit.

If Ali-Liston 1 was fixed ahead of time by some secret imaginary contract why did Liston spike his gloves to blind Ali and win? Doesnt really make sense does it?

Ironic, you're using one 'conspiracy theory' in an attempt to debunk another.

[McGrain]

Plus, there are explanations. A legitimate accident. A corner acting without Liston's say so. Perhaps something got in his eyes in his own corner (there were people ringside who thought this was what happened).

On the other hand, numerous doctors attested to Liston's injured shoulder, and Ali looks the better of the two in the fight.



The only people I have truck with here are the people who see it one way or the other in some definite light. I always leaned towards the fix though.

[Senor Pepe']

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

Ironic, you're using one 'conspiracy theory' in an attempt to debunk another.

Correct, Mr Un.

Unfortunately HOUDINI cannot see the forest for the trees.

Chris Dundee (Wrestiling Promoter in Miami Beach) was an advisor for
the fight in Miami Beach.

[Lord Tywin]

The difference is that the first conspiracy theory actually has "some" evidence to support it.

Basically the bottom line is Pepe/Duce who has in the past, several times, been caught fabricating quotes is now pretending to have seen an imaginary contract.

Even if there were an immediate rematch clause in the event of a loss that is not unheard of. We still see those today on occasion.

The sad fact is that Pepe has already said Liston is his favorite fighter. He hates Ali. The guy cant accept that someone he hates (who beat more formidible fighters than Liston) defeated Liston with ease.

Ali beat Liston, took his heart and made him quit. In essence he exposed him. Pepe/Duce cant accept that.

[BillB]

Originally Posted by Lord Tywin

More lies and bullshit.

If Ali-Liston 1 was fixed ahead of time by some secret imaginary contract why did Liston spike his gloves to blind Ali and win? Doesnt really make sense does it?

It doesn't make sense because it didn't happen.

"But this week Angelo Dundee, Clay's legendary trainer, finally dismissed that theory. Dundee, 82, revealed: 'People said Liston put liniment on his gloves to blind Ali, but that was a crock."

[URL]***********.standard.co.uk/sport/liston-didnt-blind-ali-6987354.html[/URL]

[Senor Pepe']

Sir Lord,,,,,,,

There wasn't a rematch clause 'in the documentation'

Of course you fall prey to following some 'snippets'

The contract stated, that Inter-Continental-Promotions had the 'right'
to choose the first and second opponent for Cassius Clay, as well as
being the closed circuit telecast operator and primary fight promotion controller.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by Lord Tywin

The difference is that the first conspiracy theory actually has "some" evidence to support it.

There IS evidence for the first fight being a fix, however.

Liston told a couple of people it was fixed (After). Liston told people they shouldn't bet on him versus Ali (before, and very unusal). He was almost entirely owned by gangsters looking to cash on on their last big chip before quitting the boxing game. In fact, if this fight was fought in 1880, I think it would be generally held to be fixed.

But we have the fight film, which seems to support a straight up victory of some description (though there a few bits and bobs even here).

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

Sir Lord,,,,,,,

The contract stated, that Inter-Continental-Promotions had the 'right'
to choose the first and second opponent for Cassius Clay, as well as
being the closed circuit telecast operator and primary fight promotion controller.

You make far, far to much of these contracts - in fact, your language relating to it is ridiculous. Furthermore, it was worth much less to these guys than the deal Braddock and Gould made with Madison Square Garden and those goons.

[Lord Tywin]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

Sir Lord,,,,,,,

There wasn't a rematch clause 'in the documentation'

Of course you fall prey to following some 'snippets'

The contract stated, that Inter-Continental-Promotions had the 'right'
to choose the first and second opponent for Cassius Clay, as well as
being the closed circuit telecast operator and primary fight promotion controller.

And this points to a fix how?

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Furthermore, it was worth much less to these guys than the deal Braddock and Gould made with Madison Square Garden and those goons.

When all was said and done, it would be interesting to see how much this 'cartel' gained from the business of Clay being champion.
I-C promotions must have made a fair bit on the Ali v. Floyd Patterson fight in Vegas plus closed-circuit TV, and we can only guess who else made a killing out of big time boxing returning to Vegas in 1965.

[McGrain]

You can't believe it was anything like a dunt, and that's without even measuring the money that was hooked in gambling. But that is interesting because nobody has been able to point to anything really odd in terms of gambling anything like as persuasive as the sudden rush of money on, say, Carpantier before he met Dempsey. If there was serious money made on gambling it was brilliantly disguised. At the end of the day though, expecting what was basically the mafia and its associates to produce a serious paper trail is tilting at windmills.

[groove]

Pepe, Can I see your secret Foreman Ali Fight Contract?

[Senor Pepe']

Originally Posted by groove

Pepe, Can I see your secret Foreman Ali Fight Contract?

There is none, as that fight was legitimate.

By the way, how much in gate receipts would have a Sonny Liston
vs. Eddie Machen fight done in late-1964, had Sonny won that bout versus Cassius Clay in February 1964.

I-C-P did their calculations, and Sonny would have been lucky to
get $200,000.

Nobody wanted that fight. Not anybody that wanted to make money.