Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract' - Page 4

McGrain · 11-12-2012, 11:49 AM

Yeah, one of the many reasons Machen probably wouldn't have got the fight (try and get your head around it).

Senor Pepe' · 11-12-2012, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGrain

Yeah, one of the many reasons Machen probably wouldn't have got the fight (try and get your head around it).

Money Numbers from Robert Nilon (I-C-P) calculated that a Heavyweight Championship bout
between Sonny Liston and Eddie Machen would have been a 'financial disaster' in 1964.

At best, the promotion would have done $700,000. Where as Liston vs. Clay did nearly $5,000,000.

Actually, the Liston vs. Clay bout in February 1964 fell short of the $6,000,000 projected estimate.

Seamus · 11-12-2012, 01:59 PM

Honestly, I am intrigued by this thread. The naysayers are tossing around platitudes. Pepe is quoting contracts and facts.

Senor Pepe' · 11-12-2012, 02:15 PM

Seamus,

More facts -

August 2, 1963

Robert Nilon and Jack Nilon (Sonny Liston Team) were negotiating for Sonny to defend his
Heavyweight Championship versus Cassius Clay on September 30, 1963 in Philadelphia Stadium.

So far, sounds good.

But, under the I-C-P Promotional Contract, Sonny Liston would have also been a fight promoter. That is a 'No No'.

So Sonny, instead of getting 48% of the gross net receipts (and be taxed under the corporate rate), he had to remove
himself off of the I-C-P paperwork as an officer in the corporation.

Under individual tax laws, Sonny would now be taxed on 90% of his fight purse. That is one big hit. Of a $2,000,000 fight purse,
Sonny would only get to keep $200,000 of it.

That was the end of that September 30, 1963 Championship Fight in Philadelphia.

Hands of Iron · 11-12-2012, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Tywin

More lies and bullshit.

Senor Pepe' · 11-12-2012, 04:37 PM

August 1963,

After negotiations with William Faversham broke down, Sonny Liston, Jack Nilon and
Robert Nilon headed to Scandanavia (Mysen, Norway), for some boxing exhibitions.

There, they tried to convince 'INGO' to fight Sonny. But, for tax reasons, INGO felt
it was not worth fighting in the United States.

groove · 11-12-2012, 05:50 PM

i wonder if the weigh in was part of the act "Joe Louis was flat footed, Sonny Liston is flat footed, me and Sugar Ray are two pretty dancers"

Lord Tywin · 11-12-2012, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus

Honestly, I am intrigued by this thread. The naysayers are tossing around platitudes. Pepe is quoting contracts and facts.

If he is quoting contracts and facts why cant he just post the actual documents instead of "quoting" them?

Just like he quoted Ali admitting he couldnt beat Norton. Just like he quoted Perez saying he should have disqualified Ali. Just like he described Duran-Tavarez. Just like he quoted Cuevas, Ayala, and several reporters saying that sparring match never happened. In every case it was shown to a certainty that he fabricated everything he printed.

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice

HOUDINI · 11-12-2012, 06:31 PM

Anyone who believes this bs is insane. Biggest load of crap I have ever read. young up and coming all time great, one of the greatest certainly, beats up on the aging champion. Seen it a million times throughout boxing history but on this inept board people see a fix. Sad....there has to be a decent boxing board somewhere on the Internet. This board is the worst.

Senor Pepe' · 11-12-2012, 07:04 PM

Houdini,,,,,,,

What a load of 'crap', you stating that you knew that Cassius Clay was great in
late-1963 and early-1964.

Good yes, but great - nobody had that kind of foresight.

Senor Pepe' · 11-12-2012, 07:11 PM

September 1963

Sonny Liston in the United Kingdom. Thoughts of fighting in London.

The Champion was to watch two of the brightest young heavyweight prospects in Britain.

Billy 'Golden Boy' Walker, the 23 year-old 195 lb. 'hot prospect' at 9-1-1 (7 KO's).
vs.
'Playboy' Johnny Prescott, the 25 year-old 182 lb. 'Midlands Area' Heavyweight Champion 22-2-2 (11 KO's)

Was Johnny Prescott, thought to be the 'sacrificial lamb' for Sonny Liston in November 1963, if
he got by the 'Golden Boy'.

But, the 'Golden Boy' after getting seriously cut early in the bout, battered the 'Playboy' in the
final rounds, including flooring Prescott in Round 10, forcing Referee - Tommy Little to call a halt
to the bout at 1:36 of Round 10.

The Champion stated that he was not too impressed with either boxer, as both need alot of
work to reach the Top 15 level of Heavyweights.

D9Garrard · 11-12-2012, 09:44 PM

Let's make the knuckleheads happy. No fight was ever fixed. Not even where the mob was involved. No fighter ever took a dive. Not even when the odds were set up where they could make ten times the money than otherwise. Nope. Never.

Politics? Sleazy and cutthroat about money and power. Religion? Deceit and power plays abound. Business of every kind imaginable? Lust for money and manipulations to make the biggest bottom line.

But Boxing? Never. Anyone who ever laced up the gloves, trained a fighter, or managed his business became miraculously transformed into paragons of virtue who were literally incapable of even a trace of dishonesty and always acted with spiritual purity. Like instant and permanent salvation.

Message board any better for you now, Houdini?

BillB · 11-12-2012, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D9Garrard

Let's make the knuckleheads happy. No fight was ever fixed. Not even where the mob was involved. No fighter ever took a dive. Not even when the odds were set up where they could make ten times the money than otherwise. Nope. Never.

Politics? Sleazy and cutthroat about money and power. Religion? Deceit and power plays abound. Business of every kind imaginable? Lust for money and manipulations to make the biggest bottom line.

But Boxing? Never. Anyone who ever laced up the gloves, trained a fighter, or managed his business became miraculously transformed into paragons of virtue who were literally incapable of even a trace of dishonesty and always acted with spiritual purity. Like instant and permanent salvation.

Message board any better for you now, Houdini?

You're absolutely right.

Add to that, Liston was owned by Frankie Carbo and Blinky Palermo . These were two fine and upstanding gentlemen who would never tolerate a fix.

As a student of boxing history since 1970 (he's told us this about 10 times in the last two days), HOUDINI must be aware of this.

Lord Tywin · 11-12-2012, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillB

You're absolutely right.

Add to that, Liston was owned by Frankie Carbo and Blinky Palermo . These were two fine and upstanding gentlemen who would never tolerate a fix.

As a student of boxing history since 1970 (he's told us this about 10 times in the last two days), HOUDINI must be aware of this.

Both Palermo and Carbo's influence in boxing and Liston's career had been effectively broken at this point and both were serving extended sentences in federal prison.

D9Garrard · 11-13-2012, 12:36 AM

Look, I can't say with concrete certainty that Sonny took a dive in either fight for either money or any other reason and no one else can either. But to dismiss the possibility (nevertheless the likelihood) with complete certainty is a position that deserves sarcastic scorn and displays an adolescent view of a sport centered around gambling and money.

My question is why is this possibility SO threatening to several of the posters on this thread that they literally throw tantrums? If Liston did do a half-gainer off the high dive, does that mean that Clay couldn't have beaten him in a shoot? Does it besmirch the entire foundation of professional boxing as we know it? Does it completely destroy everything Clay/Ali ever accomplished in his entire career? I say "no" to all three of those questions, BTW.

If Liston, a lifelong hustler under mob control, decided to maximize his profits by embarking on a dishonest business venture, I don't think this means that Mother Mary didn't give birth as a virgin, that we didn't actually land on the moon, or that your personal paternity is in question. Seriously, get a grip and stop being so insecure about something that may or may not have happened fifty years ago. This overreacting makes me think a few of you fit the quote from Shakespeare that "You doth protest too much"

11-12-2012, 11:49 AM	#46
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 63,260 vCash: 1000	Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract' Yeah, one of the many reasons Machen probably wouldn't have got the fight (try and get your head around it).
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11-12-2012, 01:59 PM	#48
Seamus Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Lisboa, Portugal Posts: 10,112 vCash: 1000	Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract' Honestly, I am intrigued by this thread. The naysayers are tossing around platitudes. Pepe is quoting contracts and facts.
Top

11-12-2012, 02:15 PM	#49
Senor Pepe' Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 4,734 vCash: 500	Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract' Seamus, More facts - August 2, 1963 Robert Nilon and Jack Nilon (Sonny Liston Team) were negotiating for Sonny to defend his Heavyweight Championship versus Cassius Clay on September 30, 1963 in Philadelphia Stadium. So far, sounds good. But, under the I-C-P Promotional Contract, Sonny Liston would have also been a fight promoter. That is a 'No No'. So Sonny, instead of getting 48% of the gross net receipts (and be taxed under the corporate rate), he had to remove himself off of the I-C-P paperwork as an officer in the corporation. Under individual tax laws, Sonny would now be taxed on 90% of his fight purse. That is one big hit. Of a $2,000,000 fight purse, Sonny would only get to keep $200,000 of it. That was the end of that September 30, 1963 Championship Fight in Philadelphia.
Top

11-12-2012, 04:37 PM	#51
Senor Pepe' Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 4,734 vCash: 500	Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract' August 1963, After negotiations with William Faversham broke down, Sonny Liston, Jack Nilon and Robert Nilon headed to Scandanavia (Mysen, Norway), for some boxing exhibitions. There, they tried to convince 'INGO' to fight Sonny. But, for tax reasons, INGO felt it was not worth fighting in the United States.
Top

11-12-2012, 05:50 PM	#52
groove Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,024 vCash: 1000	Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract' i wonder if the weigh in was part of the act "Joe Louis was flat footed, Sonny Liston is flat footed, me and Sugar Ray are two pretty dancers"
Top

11-12-2012, 06:31 PM	#54
HOUDINI Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 661 vCash: 500	Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract' Anyone who believes this bs is insane. Biggest load of crap I have ever read. young up and coming all time great, one of the greatest certainly, beats up on the aging champion. Seen it a million times throughout boxing history but on this inept board people see a fix. Sad....there has to be a decent boxing board somewhere on the Internet. This board is the worst.
Top

11-12-2012, 07:04 PM	#55
Senor Pepe' Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 4,734 vCash: 500	Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract' Houdini,,,,,,, What a load of 'crap', you stating that you knew that Cassius Clay was great in late-1963 and early-1964. Good yes, but great - nobody had that kind of foresight.
Top

11-12-2012, 07:11 PM	#56
Senor Pepe' Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 4,734 vCash: 500	Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract' September 1963 Sonny Liston in the United Kingdom. Thoughts of fighting in London. The Champion was to watch two of the brightest young heavyweight prospects in Britain. Billy 'Golden Boy' Walker, the 23 year-old 195 lb. 'hot prospect' at 9-1-1 (7 KO's). vs. 'Playboy' Johnny Prescott, the 25 year-old 182 lb. 'Midlands Area' Heavyweight Champion 22-2-2 (11 KO's) Was Johnny Prescott, thought to be the 'sacrificial lamb' for Sonny Liston in November 1963, if he got by the 'Golden Boy'. But, the 'Golden Boy' after getting seriously cut early in the bout, battered the 'Playboy' in the final rounds, including flooring Prescott in Round 10, forcing Referee - Tommy Little to call a halt to the bout at 1:36 of Round 10. The Champion stated that he was not too impressed with either boxer, as both need alot of work to reach the Top 15 level of Heavyweights. Last edited by Senor Pepe'; 11-12-2012 at 07:34 PM.
Top

11-12-2012, 09:44 PM	#57
D9Garrard Journeyman ESB Jr Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 216 vCash: 1000	Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract' Let's make the knuckleheads happy. No fight was ever fixed. Not even where the mob was involved. No fighter ever took a dive. Not even when the odds were set up where they could make ten times the money than otherwise. Nope. Never. Politics? Sleazy and cutthroat about money and power. Religion? Deceit and power plays abound. Business of every kind imaginable? Lust for money and manipulations to make the biggest bottom line. But Boxing? Never. Anyone who ever laced up the gloves, trained a fighter, or managed his business became miraculously transformed into paragons of virtue who were literally incapable of even a trace of dishonesty and always acted with spiritual purity. Like instant and permanent salvation. Message board any better for you now, Houdini?
Top

11-13-2012, 12:36 AM	#60
D9Garrard Journeyman ESB Jr Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 216 vCash: 1000	Re: Sonny Liston 'The Secretive Fight Contract' Look, I can't say with concrete certainty that Sonny took a dive in either fight for either money or any other reason and no one else can either. But to dismiss the possibility (nevertheless the likelihood) with complete certainty is a position that deserves sarcastic scorn and displays an adolescent view of a sport centered around gambling and money. My question is why is this possibility SO threatening to several of the posters on this thread that they literally throw tantrums? If Liston did do a half-gainer off the high dive, does that mean that Clay couldn't have beaten him in a shoot? Does it besmirch the entire foundation of professional boxing as we know it? Does it completely destroy everything Clay/Ali ever accomplished in his entire career? I say "no" to all three of those questions, BTW. If Liston, a lifelong hustler under mob control, decided to maximize his profits by embarking on a dishonest business venture, I don't think this means that Mother Mary didn't give birth as a virgin, that we didn't actually land on the moon, or that your personal paternity is in question. Seriously, get a grip and stop being so insecure about something that may or may not have happened fifty years ago. This overreacting makes me think a few of you fit the quote from Shakespeare that "You doth protest too much"
Top