How good was Dempsey's title reign?

JAB5239 · 05-17-2011, 01:24 AM

Lets look at who he fought and discuss the ramifications of not making a Greb or Wills fight.

Willard-In many people eyes the worst of the heavyweight

champions

Billy Miske-Had one win over a top heavyweight (Bill Brennen) and was 3-2-3 in his last 8 fights and had Brights disease which would kill him less than 4 years later. Had Lost

to Greb.

Bill Brennen-Hadn't beaten a top fighter in some time and had lost to Greb.

Georges Carpentier-Light heavyweight champion

who ducked Greb and hadn't beaten a top heavyweight in years.

Jimmy Darcy-Dempsey's sparring partner who had a career 52-72-42 (16) record.

Tommy Gibbons-Excellent light heavy who had already lost to Greb.

Luis Firpo-Tough, but crude and unskilled.

Gene Tunney-One of the greatest light heavies ever.

8 title fights in 7 years. Blatently ducked both Harry Greb and Harry Wills. Dempsey was good was his reign as champion, really?

Unforgiven · 05-17-2011, 02:46 AM

If there's one thing this forum's been lacking recently it's a discussion about Dempsey's title reign and resume in general.

Jimmy Darcy wasn't a title defence, just another 4-round exhibition.

Yeah, I don't think anyone says Dempsey had a great set of title defences. Well, financially he did.

My2Sense · 05-17-2011, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAB5239

Lets look at who he fought and discuss the ramifications of not making a Greb or Wills fight.

He basically fought the guys that Wills refused to fight, but Greb had already beaten.

Combined with the fact that Greb had troubled Dempsey in public sparring sessions, and Dempsey at least did try to make a fight with Wills in 1922 but was blocked by the NY Commission, a case could be made that not fighting Greb actually hurts Dempsey's image/legacy more than not fighting Wills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAB5239

Dempsey was good was his reign as champion, really?

Well you named five HOFers there, so that still is pretty good, even if it could've been better.

Unforgiven · 05-17-2011, 03:18 AM

It's the inactivity that hurts his reign the most.

JAB5239 · 05-17-2011, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by My2Sense

He basically fought the guys that Wills refused to fight, but Greb had already beaten.

Combined with the fact that Greb had troubled Dempsey in public sparring sessions, and Dempsey at least did try to make a fight with Wills in 1922 but was blocked by the NY Commission, a case could be made that not fighting Greb actually hurts Dempsey's image/legacy more than not fighting Wills.

Well you named five HOFers there, so that still is pretty good, even if it could've been better.

What kind of overall grade would you give for his title reign? HOFers or not, his reign is marred by inactivity and leftovers for the most part. I can't see rating it any higher than a C at best.

JAB5239 · 05-17-2011, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

It's the inactivity that hurts his reign the most.

His refusal to fight Greb or Wills isn't far behind that in my opinion.

Unforgiven · 05-17-2011, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAB5239

His refusal to fight Greb or Wills isn't far behind that in my opinion.

He FAILED to fight Wills and Greb.
He didn't refuse to.

JAB5239 · 05-17-2011, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

He FAILED to fight Wills and Greb.
He didn't refuse to.

I will concede his failure to fight Wills. He refused to fight Greb, instead fighting guys Greb had already beaten.

Unforgiven · 05-17-2011, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAB5239

I will concede his failure to fight Wills. He refused to fight Greb, instead fighting guys Greb had already beaten.

His manager may have refused.

JAB5239 · 05-17-2011, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

His manager may have refused.

Either way the fight didn't happen my friend, and this along with the failure to fight Wills is a black mark on his career. These things are often overlooked with Dempsey because he was such an icon of the sport and of the 20's.....and rightfully so. But if any other fighter who didn't have that kind of popularity did it, it would be held against them.

Unforgiven · 05-17-2011, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAB5239

Either way the fight didn't happen my friend, and this along with the failure to fight Wills is a black mark on his career. These things are often overlooked with Dempsey because he was such an icon of the sport and of the 20's.....and rightfully so. But if any other fighter who didn't have that kind of popularity did it, it would be held against them.

Yeah, like I said he FAILED to fight them.

You're right, his failure to fight Wills and Greb is very often overlooked, hardly ever mentioned, and very few people tend to hold it against him. That's why this thread is such an important and much-needed discussion on this board !

JAB5239 · 05-17-2011, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

Yeah, like I said he FAILED to fight them.

You're right, his failure to fight Wills and Greb is very often overlooked, hardly ever mentioned, and very few people tend to hold it against him. That's why this thread is such an important and much-needed discussion on this board !

I know you're Unforgiven, but you will have to forgive me, Im very tired.

My2Sense · 05-17-2011, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAB5239

What kind of overall grade would you give for his title reign? HOFers or not, his reign is marred by inactivity and leftovers for the most part.

I wouldn't dismiss any of Dempsey's opponents as "leftovers," even if some of them came off second-best to the ATG Greb. For example, both Gibbons and Miske (regardless of any effects of his illness) would continue to be legit top contenders for another couple years after losing to Dempsey. Gibbons was actually rated the #2 HW contender at one point, behind only Wills. (I think it's also worth noting that while Gibbons had lost his most recent fight with Greb, he was generally credited with beating him decisively in two of their previous fights.) And Firpo, regardless of his limitations, had just won a tourney to earn the shot at Dempsey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAB5239

I can't see rating it any higher than a C at best.

I would say B+. He didn't fight either of the two guys needed to get an A, but he still fought pretty darn good comp around at that time.

McGrain · 05-17-2011, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by My2Sense

Combined with the fact that Greb had troubled Dempsey in public sparring sessions, and Dempsey at least did try to make a fight with Wills in 1922 but was blocked by the NY Commission, a case could be made that not fighting Greb actually hurts Dempsey's image/legacy more than not fighting Wills.

Sometimes I feel this way. Sometimes I feel that it was the more disturbing of the two ducks.

I think of the great champions - guys who were great and held the title a while - it was the worst outside of Johnson.

Unforgiven · 05-17-2011, 04:32 AM

I don't think there was an awful lot of demand or clamour for a Dempsey-Greb fight, rightly or wrongly.

Greb was chasing the middleweight and light-heavyweight champions at the same time too, and making fights with some one or other on a super-busy schedule.
Ironically, perhaps he would have got more support for a shot at Dempsey had he been less active and done more talking or sulking or something.

View Poll Results: How would do you grade Dempseys championship reign?
A+	2	3.39%
A	1	1.69%
A-	2	3.39%
B+	5	8.47%
B	18	30.51%
B-	5	8.47%
C+	7	11.86%
C	7	11.86%
C-	7	11.86%
D	5	8.47%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

05-17-2011, 01:24 AM	#1
JAB5239 Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,295 vCash: 1000	How good was Dempsey's title reign? Lets look at who he fought and discuss the ramifications of not making a Greb or Wills fight. Willard-In many people eyes the worst of the heavyweight champions Billy Miske-Had one win over a top heavyweight (Bill Brennen) and was 3-2-3 in his last 8 fights and had Brights disease which would kill him less than 4 years later. Had Lost to Greb. Bill Brennen-Hadn't beaten a top fighter in some time and had lost to Greb. Georges Carpentier-Light heavyweight champion who ducked Greb and hadn't beaten a top heavyweight in years. Jimmy Darcy-Dempsey's sparring partner who had a career 52-72-42 (16) record. Tommy Gibbons-Excellent light heavy who had already lost to Greb. Luis Firpo-Tough, but crude and unskilled. Gene Tunney-One of the greatest light heavies ever. 8 title fights in 7 years. Blatently ducked both Harry Greb and Harry Wills. Dempsey was good was his reign as champion, really?
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05-17-2011, 02:46 AM	#2
Unforgiven Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 13,141 vCash: 1000	Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe If there's one thing this forum's been lacking recently it's a discussion about Dempsey's title reign and resume in general. Jimmy Darcy wasn't a title defence, just another 4-round exhibition. Yeah, I don't think anyone says Dempsey had a great set of title defences. Well, financially he did.
Top

05-17-2011, 03:18 AM	#4
Unforgiven Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 13,141 vCash: 1000	Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe It's the inactivity that hurts his reign the most.
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05-17-2011, 04:32 AM	#15
Unforgiven Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 13,141 vCash: 1000	Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe I don't think there was an awful lot of demand or clamour for a Dempsey-Greb fight, rightly or wrongly. Greb was chasing the middleweight and light-heavyweight champions at the same time too, and making fights with some one or other on a super-busy schedule. Ironically, perhaps he would have got more support for a shot at Dempsey had he been less active and done more talking or sulking or something.
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