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Old 10-18-2013, 08:36 AM   #151
Mendoza
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer View Post
Neither McLaglen nor Jim Johnson were very good. Journeymen, really. Ketchel and O'Brien were basically the same size as Fitzsimmons. Flynn was basically the same size as Sharkey or Corbett. Less of a tank than Sharkey and a few pounds heavier, but that's it. Jeffries was shot.

So as far as championship fights against big contender-class fighters go, Jeffries has Ruhlin. Johnson has Moran, Kaufman, Ross (if I'm being generous to Ross) and Willard. That's an edge, but it's not an overwhelming one. A lot of Jeffries' opposition came before winning the title. As did Johnson's.

Except for Willard, none of Johnson's larger contender victims were as good as Langford, Burns, or Fitzsimmons. Willard beat Johnson, but you could easily argue that Johnson put up a great effort for an old man. I don't really hold the Willard loss against him.
This is how I see it. Fitz or Corbett were clearly better than anyone Johnson gave title shots too. You could argue Sharkey was too. Jeffries title opponents are better than Johnson's by a good margin. And he gave rematches.
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Old 10-18-2013, 08:46 AM   #152
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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mcvey I did not use it to make a derogatory point against Jeffries ,I mentioned it to illustrate how Mendoza tries to spin the facts.
Facts are just that. They do not need to be spun. Other posters here have corrected you and angered your incorrect statements, which could be viewed as purposely derogatory toward Jeffries.


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Johnson was relatively green against Choynski he was also around 35lbs lighter than he would be when ,according to himself, he was at his best against Jeffries
24 documented fights and fighting for years is not green.

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Johnson's average title challengers were 20bs heavier than Jeffries.
What point is that? Who's title opponents were better? Jeffries clearly. Johnson's best wins all came when he was under 200 pounds. Jeffries would have 15-20 pounds on Johnson at all times. You make a big deal in weight, so is the 15-20 pounds too much for Johnson to over come. You sure make it sound that way by saying Jeffries was too big for his opponents! Just another double standard you play.

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Jeffries never faced a challenger as big or bigger than himself ,he enjoyed massive size , and weight advantages in 5 of his 6 major fights and in 4 of them nearly 10 years age advantage. These are facts not insinuations.

There wasn't a good big man Jeffries size until decades later. This point is mute. The larger heavies Jeffries fought did not last as long. That is a fact.

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I have absolutely no problem with anyone picking Jeffries to win this match based on his toughness and durability.

I have a big problem with people telling me that Jeffries was clever , good defensively , or hard to hit etc,when it is glaringly obvious that he was not.
That is my argument.

I showed you film proof and defensive testimonials of the time. You'll never get it. Your bigoted nose blocks your eyes, and you have gone deaf hearing yourself talk the same incorrect points for years. Carry on...

Last edited by Mendoza; 10-18-2013 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 10-18-2013, 10:32 AM   #153
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Facts are just that. They do not need to be spun. Other posters here have corrected you and angered your incorrect statements, which could be viewed as purposely derogatory toward Jeffries.




24 documented fights and fighting for years is not green.



What point is that? Who's title opponents were better? Jeffries clearly. Johnson's best wins all came when he was under 200 pounds. Jeffries would have 15-20 pounds on Johnson at all times. You make a big deal in weight, so is the 15-20 pounds too much for Johnson to over come. You sure make it sound that way by saying Jeffries was too big for his opponents! Just another double standard you play.




There wasn't a good big man Jeffries size until decades later. This point is mute. The larger heavies Jeffries fought did not last as long. That is a fact.




I showed you film proof and defensive testimonials of the time. You'll never get it. Your bigoted nose blocks your eyes, and you have gone deaf hearing yourself talk the same incorrect points for years. Carry on...
Sam Mcvey was 205lbs Denver Ed Martin was 203lbs they, plus Johnson were very much around during Jeffries reign, he just ignored them.
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Old 10-18-2013, 10:37 AM   #154
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
This is how I see it. Fitz or Corbett were clearly better than anyone Johnson gave title shots too. You could argue Sharkey was too. Jeffries title opponents are better than Johnson's by a good margin. And he gave rematches.
jeffries gave rematches becuae he had no other white men to fight,since he would not defend against a black man he had no other choice really did he? But he made both his best challengers wait 2 years each before he agreed to take them on again, by which time one was 36, the other 39 going on 40.

Johnson, McVey, and Martin were clearly better challengers than Jack Munroe were they not?
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Old 10-18-2013, 02:20 PM   #155
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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jeffries gave rematches becuae he had no other white men to fight,since he would not defend against a black man he had no other choice really did he?
False. Ruhlin and Griffin also got rematches while Jeffries was champion in 1901. One was white, the other black.
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Old 10-18-2013, 02:45 PM   #156
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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False. Ruhlin and Griffin also got rematches while Jeffries was champion in 1901. One was white, the other black.
The Griffn bout was an exhibition.

Ruhlin had been totally wrecked by Fitzsimmons and a doctor stayed with him at his managers house because he was unable to travel ,he spent the night with blood coming out of his nose and ears, Fitz gave him a tremendous beating.
Did that qualify him for a title shot?
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Old 10-18-2013, 05:49 PM   #157
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

johnson would have still won
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Old 10-18-2013, 07:32 PM   #158
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

Jeffries after he lost to Johnson said that even at his best Johnson would beat him.

My belief is that Jeffries was a lot better than what those think of him today. Highly athletic...great all round fighter but Johnson was the boxing master. I'd generally go with the better boxer vs a puncher.

Another point is you have one fighter with a few dozen total bouts vs another with Three times that number fighting many different style opponents many held in not so perfect conditions.

Both were great fighters. With the lack of great footage especially with Jeffries it's a moot point trying to argue who was the greater of the two.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:29 AM   #159
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Jeffries after he lost to Johnson said that even at his best Johnson would beat him.

My belief is that Jeffries was a lot better than what those think of him today. Highly athletic...great all round fighter but Johnson was the boxing master. I'd generally go with the better boxer vs a puncher.

Another point is you have one fighter with a few dozen total bouts vs another with Three times that number fighting many different style opponents many held in not so perfect conditions.

Both were great fighters. With the lack of great footage especially with Jeffries it's a moot point trying to argue who was the greater of the two.
Jeffries lost a lot more than the fight when he stepped into the Ring at Reno.

It didnít do Johnson any good either to be honest.

I am certain that Johnson would be pleased by the controversy that he causes to this day though.
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Old 10-20-2013, 10:12 AM   #160
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Ruhlin had been totally wrecked by Fitzsimmons and a doctor stayed with him at his managers house because he was unable to travel ,he spent the night with blood coming out of his nose and ears, Fitz gave him a tremendous beating.
Did that qualify him for a title shot?
Utter BS. Since when does a KO loss bar anyone from a title shot? If you looked at Ruhlin record you will see he beat Maher before he lost to Fitz.

Jeffries KO'd Ruhlin a round faster than Fitz did. Are you saying Ruhlin was shot? Um, he beat Maher, Sharkey and Everett after losing to Jeffries, then had enough left to draw with Hart past his pirme.

How did Johnson do vs. Everett and Hart? He drew and lost. So Ruhlin who you think was done for did better than Johnson vs the same men!

The truth is Ruhlin could be viewed as Johnson's best title opponet, save Willard.

Jeffries gave re-matches to those who desereved it. Griffin, Sharkey, and Ruhlin gave Jeffries a good fight on the way up. So each had a re-match with Jeffries title on the line.

Johnson's track record of re-matches as Champion is shamefull. O'Brien and Jim Battling Johnson did not get a 2nd try even though they drew with him as champion! Some say they beat Johnson! GunBoat Smith Knocked Johnson silly in 1909 in a 4 rd ex match. He was never given a title shot either. And of coruse Langford, Jeannette and McVey were locked out of re-matches when Johnson was champion even though big time money was mentioned via the press.
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Old 10-20-2013, 12:06 PM   #161
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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The Griffn bout was an exhibition.

Ruhlin had been totally wrecked by Fitzsimmons and a doctor stayed with him at his managers house because he was unable to travel ,he spent the night with blood coming out of his nose and ears, Fitz gave him a tremendous beating.
Did that qualify him for a title shot?
In Jeffries defence, Fitzsimmons had temporarily ruled himself out as a challenger, so by fighting Ruhlin he was taking the most qualified available challenger.
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Old 10-20-2013, 02:46 PM   #162
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

During a period of two years ending in 1904, Sam McVey clearly lost four times, three of the bouts to Jack Johnson and the remaining one to Denver Ed Martin in the second bout between the two fighters. After the defeat to Martin, McVey's career was somewhat in limbo until 1907. During that period of time, McVey had few bouts, so it is probable that he had work in a regular job, possibly in Bakersfield where it appears that his father lived, rather continuing his boxing career. Under the circumstances, it is folly to consider McVey as a heavyweight contender from 1904 to 1907.

During 1907, McVey had plans to leave California and go to Europe. This was even before he had another bout with Martin in Sacramento. Shortly after the bout with Martin, he left Bakersfield to travel to Europe by way of New York City. Looking back, the decision to go to Europe definitely revived McVey's career in a big way.

Although Denver Ed Martin may have been one of the most skillful heavyweight boxers during the first seven years of the 20th Century, his apparent lack of durability, leading to a relatively high number of losses due to stoppages, negated any serious assertion that he was a contender in the long run. Yes, Martin won a ten-round bout by decision in his second bout with McVey, but he also was knocked out in all of their three other bouts. He displayed impressive boxing skills in a twenty-round bout with Jack Johnson, but was knocked down a number of times and lost the decision. In addition, Martin was knocked out in short order by Johnson in a rematch.

- Chuck Johnston
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Old 10-20-2013, 02:58 PM   #163
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Although Denver Ed Martin may have been one of the most skillful heavyweight boxers during the first seven years of the 20th Century, his apparent lack of durability, leading to a relatively high number of losses due to stoppages, negated any serious assertion that he was a contender in the long run. Yes, Martin won a ten-round bout by decision in his second bout with McVey, but he also was knocked out in all of their three other bouts. He displayed impressive boxing skills in a twenty-round bout with Jack Johnson, but was knocked down a number of times and lost the decision. In addition, Martin was knocked out in short order by Johnson in a rematch.

- Chuck Johnston
Curiously Chuck, Denver Ed Martin seems to have been more highly regarded at his peak as a contender than Jack Johnson was, and so was Sam McVea in some ways.

We can try to infer how fighters were regarded based on their rig results, but sometimes what we find flies in the face of common sense.
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Old 10-21-2013, 12:44 AM   #164
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

I go back to Common opponents. Jeffries track record is better. I don't understand this argument about the larger opponent. Most large opponents were not well coordinated in this time. Not like today. Even 25yrs later guys like Abe Simon and Buddy Baer weren't Joe Louis's best title defenses or heck even today I would argue that Wladimir Klitschko's most dangerous opponents are his smallest ones like Haye, Poevetkin even Chris Byrd. Guys like Marius Wach and Pianeta aren't overly skilled men. Fitzsimmons Corbett and Sharkey may have been small but they have the reputations as all time great fighters. As for the argument of Jeffries not fighting McVey or Johnson, it is sad to say but I don't think he would ever fight them as champion. It just wasn't done. The color line had been established by Sullivan and fighters didn't cross it. I have no doubt that Jeffries (far less of a racist than Sullivan or Corbett) would have fought them on the way to the title if the possibility presented itself. Jeffries feared no one. HEck the man came out of a 6yr retirement to defend the honor of the white race as misguided as those intentions were. Johnson drew the color line on his own people, which i think shows an awful lot of his character. His ego and his disregard to share the spotlight with his own ppl. Whether those fights would've drawn fans is inmaterial, he was a trailblazer and should of recognized the suffering other top black fighters of the day suffered and given the likes of Langford and JEannette their fair crack at the title. In Johnsnon's defense of his ability to take a punch i totally throw out the Ketchal fight. Whether it was a set up or not the man got up immediately and ko'd Ketchal anyone can be hit with a flash knockdown. He clearly wasn't affected by it at all.
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Old 10-21-2013, 05:02 AM   #165
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Default Re: Prime James J. Jeffries vs Jack Johnson

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Utter BS. Since when does a KO loss bar anyone from a title shot? If you looked at Ruhlin record you will see he beat Maher before he lost to Fitz.

Jeffries KO'd Ruhlin a round faster than Fitz did. Are you saying Ruhlin was shot? Um, he beat Maher, Sharkey and Everett after losing to Jeffries, then had enough left to draw with Hart past his pirme.

How did Johnson do vs. Everett and Hart? He drew and lost. So Ruhlin who you think was done for did better than Johnson vs the same men!

The truth is Ruhlin could be viewed as Johnson's best title opponet, save Willard.

Jeffries gave re-matches to those who desereved it. Griffin, Sharkey, and Ruhlin gave Jeffries a good fight on the way up. So each had a re-match with Jeffries title on the line.

Johnson's track record of re-matches as Champion is shamefull. O'Brien and Jim Battling Johnson did not get a 2nd try even though they drew with him as champion! Some say they beat Johnson! GunBoat Smith Knocked Johnson silly in 1909 in a 4 rd ex match. He was never given a title shot either. And of coruse Langford, Jeannette and McVey were locked out of re-matches when Johnson was champion even though big time money was mentioned via the press.
I'm saying Ruhlin was never the same fighter after being kod by Fitz have you actually read the ringside reports of the fight?
Jeffries did NOT KO Ruhlin ,Ruhlin's corner stopped the fight between rds,5 and 6, more spin
I know who Ruhlin beat, and when he did so.
I know that Fitz half killed him and he did not deserve a title chance.

Jeffries gave rematches to two old men in Corbett and Fitz and they had to wait two years for them he himself was in his prime. Johnson drew with Jim Johnson when he was 35 fighting with a broken arm.
Jim Johnson's subsequent form did not merit another title chance.There was never any demand for a second O Brien fight
The men Ruhlin beat after losing to Fitz were shot too.
Sharkey had won only one of his last five fights, being stopped in two of them and both he and Maher were slungout for not trying,in their fight.

Everett retired after the Ruhlin fight, coming back 7 years later and losing all his fights.
There was a period of about a year when Smith might have been given a title shot but losing to Levinsky, Carpentier , and being kod by Langford sent him into a steep decline.

Smith was never anxious to fight Johnson, he changed the subject when interviewed about it in the UK.
Knocking someone down in sparring does not qualify you to fight for the title.
Otherwise we might have seen Toxie Hall challenge Marciano,Greg Page against Tyson,Travis Walker ,and Raphael Butler against Vitali Klitschko.

As champion Johnson signed to fight Jeannette three times ,each time authorites veteod the match ,he signed to fight Langford twice too, once it fell through because Woodman could not come up with a cash binder and once the purse was too derisory I've posted the corroborating reports several times.

Johnson offered to defend against the best White challenger ,McCarty but the promoter vetoed any idea of that happening. McCarty instead met Pelkey and died. Again I posted primary sources showing this.

Keep that hate flowing, it appears to be your sole raison d'etre.
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