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Old 11-20-2012, 05:16 AM   #391
Loudon
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Default Re: Kessler "Ward Has No Guts "

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Originally Posted by TI99/4A View Post
Because that's what real fighters do. They ain't afraid of no plane, Hannibal.
Ha! good one.

The Super Six obviously favoured Ward, with Showtime hosting it, and Goosen being his promoter. Like I keep saying, if Frank W or Eddie Hearn had've hosted it in Britain, Ward would have had to travel. But Showtime are a big U.S. network, so Andre had advantages over the European fighters.

But put yourself in Andre's shoes. Kessler outside of Europe, isn't a big name, and he's beaten Froch, less than a year ago, in a fight that wasn't even close. So why would he be bothered about rematching the two fighters? He's beaten them, and he's moved on. It's admirable that Kessler and Froch both want rematches, but why would Andre be bothered?

At the moment he's got no desire to fight either fighter. You can't say he's ducking, or he's not a legitmate champ, and he's a stay at home fighter etc. Every promoter and each fighter was happy with the terms of the tournament. Right from the outset, Kessler and Froch knew they would have to travel. They both tried there best to win the Super Six, and Andre beat them both fair and square.

Do you think if Froch had won the Super Six against Ward, he'd want to fight him again less than 12 months later? I don't think so. He's only rematching Bute, because he's contractually obligated to. I think people need to stop criticising Andre, and just appreciate him.


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Old 11-20-2012, 05:21 AM   #392
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Default Re: Kessler "Ward Has No Guts "

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Originally Posted by dinovelvet View Post
Holyfield wont be remembered for the fights he had abroad while he should of been in retirement , he'll be remembered for the fights in his prime he fought in America.
Nobody is expecting Peterson or Garcia to rematch Khan in the UK.
Broner will never go to Scotland to fight Burns.
There is no call for Floyd to rematch Cotto in P.R.
After 3 fights, nobody complains Manny doesn't fight Marquez in Mexico.
How's it going mate?

Great post!


Regards, Loudon.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:44 AM   #393
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Default Re: Kessler "Ward Has No Guts "

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Holyfield wont be remembered for the fights he had abroad while he should of been in retirement , he'll be remembered for the fights in his prime he fought in America
In his prime who could he have fought abroad that was a more meaningful fight? Where could he have made more cash than the US?

Ward has options that Holy never really had in his prime.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:33 AM   #394
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Default Re: Kessler "Ward Has No Guts "

Dendy,

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Ward is in an awkward situation really cos there aren't any big names available to him at 168 in america other than pavlik, who has seen better days and has never done anything of note at 168lb.
I agree completely, he is in an awkward situation. Like I say, hopefully Direll will comeback into the mix, and we can't rule out Bute just yet.

Quote:
Meanwhile in europe there are still some big fights to be had that can generate loads of interest /money. The super middleweight division until now has been dominated by euros and other than ward still is. He may be the best but he certainly is in no position where he can call the shots like mayweather does.
Again, I understand where you're coming from, but he's already beaten Europe's best fighters. Why would he be interested in going to Denmark? At least with Froch he can unify the titles. Kessler offers nothing. But again, he's just beaten Froch and won the Super Six, so I don't think he's interested in unifying the division. There's really no need for him to do so at this point. If the Froch fight had been close, then maybe there'd be a call for a rematch and a unification.

Of course Andre doesn't have the power that Floyd has, but he certainly has a lot of power. He's the man at 168, and fighters are going to have to give into his demands if they want a shot.


Regards, Loudon.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:37 AM   #395
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Default Re: Kessler "Ward Has No Guts "

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Originally Posted by BoxingFanNo1 View Post
In his prime who could he have fought abroad that was a more meaningful fight? Where could he have made more cash than the US?

Ward has options that Holy never really had in his prime.

That's fair enough, but what are Ward's options?

Fighting Kessler again in Denmark, and rematching Froch.

He gains nothing from a Kessler fight, and he's beaten Froch pretty easily, less than a year ago. Why would he be bothered about fighting them both again? He's got nothing to prove.


Regards, Loudon.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:55 AM   #396
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Default Re: Kessler "Ward Has No Guts "

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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
That's fair enough, but what are Ward's options?

Fighting Kessler again in Denmark, and rematching Froch.

He gains nothing from a Kessler fight, and he's beaten Froch pretty easily, less than a year ago. Why would he be bothered about fighting them both again? He's got nothing to prove.


Regards, Loudon.
He gains nothing from the Kessler fight? How so? Just read the boards, most people accept this as one of the few good fights for him.
The manner of Wards win left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths and the word rematch was all over the place. (just check the boards after the fight)

Froch is in a different position now, hello, unification fight? and it's a ridiculous comment anyways. With thinking like that we'd never have had so many rematchs through the years. Time has passed, things have changed, it's not like he's giving an immediate rematch where the opponent has little or no value.

Froch and Kessler away from home are HUGE on Wards record, I seriously can't see how this can be argued.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:21 AM   #397
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Default Re: Kessler "Ward Has No Guts "

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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
Dendy,



I agree completely, he is in an awkward situation. Like I say, hopefully Direll will comeback into the mix, and we can't rule out Bute just yet.

Dirrell is done and even if he did come back into the mix he doesn't sell himself very well. Big "if" imo. Bute will never be the fight it was to be when he was considered the best challenge for ward, another big "if" too. Ward really was silly when he rejected the bute fight cos it created more questions than answers. He passed on the opportunity to try and become a unified champ which in itself would have stopped much of the negativity that is aimed at him.

Again, I understand where you're coming from, but he's already beaten Europe's best fighters. Why would he be interested in going to Denmark? At least with Froch he can unify the titles. Kessler offers nothing. But again, he's just beaten Froch and won the Super Six, so I don't think he's interested in unifying the division. There's really no need for him to do so at this point. If the Froch fight had been close, then maybe there'd be a call for a rematch and a unification.

Maybe he should just retire or fight once a year against?

Of course Andre doesn't have the power that Floyd has, but he certainly has a lot of power. He's the man at 168, and fighters are going to have to give into his demands if they want a shot.

Not necessarily, indeed he is the best fighter but like i said before he struggles to generate the interest his skills deserve. I see him struggling to find career defining fights and with his reluctance to travel it wont get any easier within the super middle weight division.


Regards, Loudon.
What amazes me the most is that he is a gold medallist and went on to win the s6 but still struggles to gain the profile his success deserves. You said yourself that you think he will be a big star soon, I am just shocked it hasn't happened yet.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:27 AM   #398
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Default Re: Kessler "Ward Has No Guts "

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Mayweather doesn't need to but i bet he would if there was a decent challenge for him that most importantly made $$$

Ward is in an awkward situation really cos there aren't any big names available to him at 168 in america other than pavlik, who has seen better days and has never done anything of note at 168lb.

Meanwhile in europe there are still some big fights to be had that can generate loads of interest /money. The super middleweight division until now has been dominated by euros and other than ward still is. He may be the best but he certainly is in no position where he can call the shots like mayweather does.
Yes, but these other SMWs that "dominate" the division have already been decisively beaten by Ward.

What does it do for his legacy to fight them again...anywhere? Hes beaten both Kessler,Abraham and Froch, the 3 best European fighters, pretty easily in the recent past.

In America he had Pavlik, who is a big name and can bring in money,and who he hasnt already beaten, and perhaps Dirrell who if he gets back his old form is probably the next best fighter out there after Ward.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:43 AM   #399
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Default Re: Kessler "Ward Has No Guts "

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Yes, but these other SMWs that "dominate" the division have already been decisively beaten by Ward.

What does it do for his legacy to fight them again...anywhere? Hes beaten both Kessler,Abraham and Froch, the 3 best European fighters, pretty easily in the recent past.

In America he had Pavlik, who is a big name and can bring in money,and who he hasnt already beaten, and perhaps Dirrell who if he gets back him old form is probably the next best fighter out there after Ward.
Fella i am not disputing the fact he beat these guys.

the pavlik fight is the only decent fight he can make at present at 168 and this in itself speaks volumes about the lack of proven talent available for ward to fight within the USA. Moneywise, it will not be a big fight.

Dirrell is a lady boy and is not exactly active and therefore worthy, great talent but just doesn't have the head or heart necessary. Anyhow, Ward and Dirrell don't want to fight each other do they?

Although ward already beat them you cannot escape from the fact that his biggest challenges still come from european fighters. If ward doesn't want to be a part of the 168lb division in that he has no real interest in beating kessler in a cleaner fashion and taking frochs IBF title then he has no business at 168lb. He should step up to 175lb and fight the wealth of American talent within the confines on the USA
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:54 AM   #400
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Default Re: Kessler "Ward Has No Guts "

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Yes, but these other SMWs that "dominate" the division have already been decisively beaten by Ward.

What does it do for his legacy to fight them again...anywhere? Hes beaten both Kessler,Abraham and Froch, the 3 best European fighters, pretty easily in the recent past.

In America he had Pavlik, who is a big name and can bring in money,and who he hasnt already beaten, and perhaps Dirrell who if he gets back his old form is probably the next best fighter out there after Ward.
Again with this "he already beat them easy" argument. That's only relevant if Kessler and Froch dont earn a rematch.

Before he fought Froch, Bute was supposed to be Ward's next most worthy challenger, Ward was supposed to be looking to fight either Bute or rematch Kessler because they were seen as his most dangerous potential opponents in the division, but when Bute got destroyed by Froch, Froch took Bute's place as Ward's most dangerous potential opponent.

Now for some reason Ward's Fanboys say that Bute was never relevant in the first place, that Froch's destruction of Bute is over-rated and meaningless and thus rematch between Froch and Ward is pointless because of Ward's domination of the first fight.

Ok, I'm willing to accept that beating Bute alone is not enough to put Froch as an impossible-to-overlook challenger, but if he keeps winning, and Kessler keep winning then their going to meet somewhere down the line, and the winner of that fight will be the biggest potential threat to Ward in the division and impossible to ignore.

So I get annoyed at this heavy-handed dismissal of a potential Ward/Kessler or Ward/Froch rematch. Kessler or Froch can earn a second shot at Ward but beating the other top fighters in the division, and fighting each other.

Ward doesn't have any reason to fight either right now, but that doesn't mean he wont have reason to do so in the future unless he moves up to Light Heavyweight and forgets all about the Super Middleweights.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:00 AM   #401
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Default Re: Kessler "Ward Has No Guts "

[quote]
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Originally Posted by BoxingFanNo1 View Post
He gains nothing from the Kessler fight? How so? Just read the boards, most people accept this as one of the few good fights for him.
The manner of Wards win left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths and the word rematch was all over the place. (just check the boards after the fight)
That's their opinion, and they're entitled to it. But put yourself in his shoes, and try and see things from his perspective. He's won the Super Six, and has already beaten Kessler. Why would he want to go to Denmark? Fans like you, want to see it, and that's fair enough, but why would HE and the American fans want it? Kessler is not a big name in the U.S.

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Froch is in a different position now, hello, unification fight? and it's a ridiculous comment anyways. With thinking like that we'd never have had so many rematchs through the years. Time has passed, things have changed, it's not like he's giving an immediate rematch where the opponent has little or no value.
They just fought less than a year ago. Unifying the titles would be good, but the person who has the IBF belt, is the guy he's just beaten easily. So it wouldn't be much of an achievement would it? Why would Andre want to fight Carl again, when it was an easy win less than a year ago?

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Froch and Kessler away from home are HUGE on Wards record, I seriously can't see how this can be argued.
It can be argued, because the fight with Carl, wasn't even a close fight. Andre won pretty easily. So why does he need to fight him again, so soon away from home? It doesn't make sense!

Fans should be wanting him to move up to 175, not fighting guys he already beaten less than a year ago.

I respect your opinion though.


Regards, Loudon.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:33 AM   #402
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Default Re: Kessler "Ward Has No Guts "

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Fans should be wanting him to move up to 175, not fighting guys he already beaten less than a year ago.
I do want him to go to 175 if alls he is going to do is talk about what he wont do at 168lb

Problem is that i see the same problem at 175. No real challenge for him, especially in America. Also, maybe kessler and froch follow him up and win titles in there own right. Then are we going to be faced with the same set of excuses that Ward don't have to fight cos he already beat these guys? Will he reject a fight with pascal cos froch already beat him down at 168lb?

I hope not but it is starting to become apparent that ward at the moment is concentrating on what he wont do rather than will do and with this attitude i am not surprised he receives an element of negativity.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:33 AM   #403
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Default Re: Kessler "Ward Has No Guts "

Dendy,

It is a big if regarding Dirrell. But if anyone can get him back into contenion, Mayweather can.

Yes, it may have been a mistake for him to reject Bute when he did. But Bute wasn't apart of the Super Six. Andre won the tournament and then fought Chad Dawson, that was seen as a big fight at the time it was signed. We now know that Chad was drained, but Chad assured everyone at the time, that the weight wouldn't be a problem.

So I think it would be harsh to criticise Andre too much, after he'd beaten Kessler and Froch, and he took the fight with Chad. It wasn't as though he swerved Bute for an easy fight. Also, I don't think many people thought that Froch would beat Bute, me included. If Bute had've won, that unification fight would still be possible. But now, there's no real call for a unification fight, because Andre's just recently beaten Carl.

I'm in agreement that travelling would enhance his reputation, but I just don't agree with people saying that he has to fight away from home, and he has to rematch Kessler and Froch. I don't think it's neccessary at the moment.

Why go to Denmark to fight a guy who's not a big name in your own Country, who you've already beaten, when you can fight Pavlik at home? I'm not saying Pavlik is better than Kessler, I don't think he is, but from Andre's perspective, the Pavlik fight is the better proposition.

He has power now he's won the Super Six. Whoever wants a shot at him, will have to give into his and Goosen's demands.


Regards, Loudon.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:53 AM   #404
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Default Re: Kessler "Ward Has No Guts "

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I do want him to go to 175 if alls he is going to do is talk about what he wont do at 168lb

Problem is that i see the same problem at 175. No real challenge for him, especially in America. Also, maybe kessler and froch follow him up and win titles in there own right. Then are we going to be faced with the same set of excuses that Ward don't have to fight cos he already beat these guys? Will he reject a fight with pascal cos froch already beat him down at 168lb?
Yes the 175 division is hardly brimming with talent. But it's a new challenge. Winning titles in a 2nd weight class, would be more of an achievement than fighting guys you've already beaten at 168 in my opinion.

If Froch and Kessler moved up, I think Andre would be more open to the rematches, especially if one of them won a belt. You're making it sound like Andre's is running from them? He's already beaten them. I'd like to see him move up and rematch Chad at 175, and fight Clev, if he keeps progressing.

Why would he reject Pascal? I think your being harsh. If Pascal fought at 168, Andre would probably be open to a possible fight. Pavlik and the 175 fighters, would bring Andre a new challenge. Even if the fighters at 175 aren't as good as Kessler and Froch, it's still a fresh challenge. I like Carl, and him wanting a rematch with Andre, just shows you the make up of the man. He's a warrior just like Kessler. But I don't see how you or anyone can criticise Andre for not being up for it, when he's easily beaten him, less than a year ago. It doesn't make sense.

Andre is the man. Froch and Kessler want him, because he's the best, and they want redemption. But again, what does Andre gain? It would be a huge fight from their perspective, but not from Andre's.

Quote:
I hope not but it is starting to become apparent that ward at the moment is concentrating on what he wont do rather than will do and with this attitude i am not surprised he receives an element of negativity.
What attitude? He's won the Super Six, and then fought Chad, in what many people thought would be a great competitve close fight. Give the guy some slack. If you were Andre Ward, would you fight Carl again now? I certainly wouldn't. Depending on what happens, they may fight somewehere down the line, but as it stands, you can't blame Andre for not being interested. He's beaten Carl, and has nothing to prove


Regards, Loudon.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:04 AM   #405
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Default Re: Kessler "Ward Has No Guts "

[quote=Loudon;14238643]
Quote:


Yes the 175 division is hardly brimming with talent. But it's a new challenge. Winning titles in a 2nd weight class, would be more of an achievement than fighting guys you've already beaten at 168 in my opinion.

If Froch and Kessler moved up, I think Andre would be more open to the rematches, especially if one of them won a belt. You're making it sound like Andre's is running from them? He's already beaten them. I'd like to see him move up and rematch Chad at 175, and fight Clev, if he keeps progressing.

Why would he reject Pascal? I think your being harsh. If Pascal fought at 168, Andre would probably be open to a possible fight. Pavlik and the 175 fighters, would bring Andre a new challenge. Even if the fighters at 175 aren't as good as Kessler and Froch, it's still a fresh challenge. I like Carl, and him wanting a rematch with Andre, just shows you the make up of the man. He's a warrior just like Kessler. But I don't see how you or anyone can criticise Andre for not being up for it, when he's easily beaten him, less than a year ago. It doesn't make sense.

Andre is the man. Froch and Kessler want him, because he's the best, and they want redemption. But again, what does Andre gain? It would be a huge fight from their perspective, but not from Andre's.



What attitude? He's won the Super Six, and then fought Chad, in what many people thought would be a great competitve close fight. Give the guy some slack. If you were Andre Ward, would you fight Carl again now? I certainly wouldn't. Depending on what happens, they may fight somewehere down the line, but as it stands, you can't blame Andre for not being interested. He's beaten Carl, and has nothing to prove


Regards, Loudon.
You know Ward said him and Kessler have unfinished business because of the controversy... I dont care if Ward would have won with or without the headbutts (who really knows what would have happened). A rematch should be arranged...
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