Sonny Liston - Had To Lose In Lewiston, Maine

[frankenfrank]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

The lead foot lift from that punch is well documented.

4d 6th time , amazing .

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

You have that SI article and formal frame by frame analysis of the fight. If you want to throw all that out, dont know why you would unless you have other motives then just Chuvalos observation that Listons eyes were shifting side to side when he was down shows that he was potentially very hurt.

and again , u may be some1 else than Ali_ , so r u Liellah's lawyer ?

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

If your that much an Ali hater and want to throw all of this out then you have the formal NY state investigation of the second fight AND the formal investigation of the first fight my Florida State. BOTH concluded there was no evidence of a fix.

and again , your posts in this 1 thread r so different from 1 another .

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

Now if you then want to ignore all of this evidence then I would suggest the issue is with YOU. Finally just look at the historic scope of the fights. Ali as we all know went on to be, to this very day, rated by most as the best hwt champion ever. Everyone lists him at the very least in the top 2. Here he is fighting an old Liston after soundly beating him in Miami.....why fix the fight?

bikoz due 2 fixes like this and cheats like with 4man , Cooper , Frazier #2 and Terrell and gifts like with Doug Jones , Alonzo Johnson and George Chuvalo and fighting handicapped opponents (Patterson #1 , Cleveland Williams) or severely aged 1s like Liston , Williams , Folley and Patterson #2 (even Lyle can qualify as severely aged , older than Ali himself whom is considered past his prime by most by de time when he fought Lyle) .

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

Why would Liston train sooo very hard to get in shape for the fight if the fix was in?

Supposing that u do not lie again , which is not a smart supposition 2do , looking like in shape may jast b his excuse 4 not taking a dive .

I know that u and yor laix will ignore/reject it .

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

The truth is looking back on both fights it was the classic example of a young future ATG fighting the old champion and beating him soundly. Ali was the one on the way up and Liston was certainly on his way down. By what magical method was Lston going to catch Ali and knock him out in either fight? If was quite obvious from the opening bell of both fights that Ali was just too quick for Liston. He was falling all over himself trying to land a clean shot.

So u reckon that Liston was aged and not in de "best shape of his life" like some1 here st8ed b4 ?

[Senor Pepe']

Originally Posted by groove

hey pepe, maybe you can explain big cat williams 1st knockdown - that didn't look like much of a shot with ali going backwards. did williams take a dive? big cat did look in good shape tho. ali didn't have any fighting skills to win fair don't ya think?



p.s. i think here at his peak he was light years ahead of any other heavyweight. liston was unlucky to be facing him coming to his peak.

Groove Man,

Lets not forget, that after Cleveland Williams came back in 1966,

February 1966 - He was floored and nealy knocked out in the 1st Round by Ben Black
in his 'first' comeback bout.

March 1966 - Cleveland was floored twice early, and nearly knocked out by Mel Turnbow
in the 2nd comeback fight.

April 1966 - And was nearly decisioned by 'journeyman' Sonny Moore, who had Cleveland in big
trouble in early in the fight in his 3rd comeback fight.

Unfortunately Cleveland, could not support himself with the bad leg, at the time.

[Senor Pepe']

Novemebr 1965

Robert Nilon, 50% owner of I-C-P, the promotions firm who handled
the 'Fiasco in Maine', is now in control of the Cassius Clay vs. Floyd Patterson bout.

There is so much paperwork to unfold, nobody is quite clear on who
the other interested parties are.

Salvatore Avena, a New Jersey Attorney, and William Crawford (listed
as Sonny Liston's father in-law) both held intersets in I-C-P, but
both have sold their shares to Fred Brooks (Sports Vision, Inc.) and
Robert Garcia.

Sam Margolis, who represented Sonny Liston, has close ties to mob interests,
also owned a portion of I-C-P.

On a lighter note, the former Champion Sonny Liston still thinks he is
an officer with I-C-P, but an associate with I-C-P said, 'We are done
with Mr. Liston.'

According to I-C-P officers, Mr. Liston has sold off all his shares, and
is no longer involved in any official business with I-C-P. Unfortunately,
Mr. Liston doesn't understand contracts. You cannot sell off all your
shares, and still think you are entitled to revenue from I-C-P.

[Senor Pepe']

Yes, the loss sent shockwaves through the State Boxing Commissions,

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]