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Old 10-25-2012, 10:17 PM   #1
aduriz
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Default mark johnson :why is he in the HOF ?

it's weird that he got inducted in his first year of eligibility , while other smaller fighters with better resumes were / still ignored ( EX : Masamori Tokuyama , Yoko Gushiken ,Myung-Woo Yuh , Hilario Zapata... )

let's break down his career

IBF Flyweight title ( 1996 -1999 ) :

- won a vacant belt
- never had a unification fight
- never faced one single world champion at 112 , neither former nor future
- never fought the 112 lineal champions of that period ( Arbachakov , sasakul , pacquiao )
- most his opponents ( ALL of them ? ) were IBF mandatory challengers

one more thing , he never fought outside of the us , a country that produced only 3 flyweight beltholders in the last 50 years . also , barely fought any notable east /southeast asian fighters , the region with the highest number of flyweight titlist / contenders . in other words , he was playing in the minor leagues as far as the 112 division is concerned .

IBF Super Flyweight Champion ( 1999-2000 )


- again , won a vacant belt
- defended it against a fringe contender who never held a title

he then went on to lose twice to the first world champion he ever faced , rafael marquez .

WBO Super Flyweight Champion ( 2003- 2004 )

- beat a green fernando montiel in a close fight for the-then lightly regarded WBO belt , his best win
- defended this belt against two guys who never / would never held a title in their career .
- brutally knocked out in his last two fights against two world champions , ivan hernandez and jhonny gonzalez .


when it's all said and done , this HOF fighter fought 4 world champions . his record against them ? 1- 4 , and that one win was a close fight that could've easily been a draw .

so the question is : do you think mark johnson is HOF worthy ? and if you think so , what part of his career reinforces this ?
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Old 10-25-2012, 10:30 PM   #2
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Default Re: mark johnson :why is he in the HOF ?

I myself think his resume is a bit shallow.


perhaps had he beaten Tim Austin and two more name guys like Tapia (who he claims avoided him).
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:27 PM   #3
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Default Re: mark johnson :why is he in the HOF ?

There seems to have been a favouritism to induct very quickly the top Flyweight\Bantam fighters of recent years that were American or heavily American network based.

Bias or just ignorance of more or equally deserving(but generally older) fighters who were more well known abroad? i don't know.

As for Johnson himself, imo he was an excellent talent, but i'd agree he was no first ballot obvious candidate.His career was blunted by an inability to get the biggest fights while in his prime and from a mostly weak set of opponents.

He was a bit unlucky to be getting established just as a great 3 decades for the sub-bantam divisions were entering a barren patch(which continues to this day) and considering how tough it had been to get unifications\ big fights made even in stronger era's, he was pushing shit uphill right from becoming champ as far as being able to build a strong record goes.

He has a few ok wins here and there.The early close battle with Alberto Jimenez, who was a very solid fighter, but not great.Did a much better job on the awkward Raul Juarez than Arbachakov(arguably in decline) did.

Blowouts of Johnson and Tejedor were very impressive not because those two were any more than serviceable fighters, but because nobody else(Jimenez, tapia, Austin, Romero, PIchit)did so in as emphatic fashion.

Decisions over Montiel and Vorapin less impressive but could be added at a stretch.

That's pretty much it though, until you get to the Bantam battles with up and coming Marquez, where Johnson just didn't look physically up to fighting so high at that stage in his career.Maybe he would never have made a particularly special Bantam and he certainly wasn't one when he fought Marquez.

Montiel win was a good comeback win, though it did seem to me Montiel had choked and got the better of things over the 2nd half once he started letting his hands go.Fernando has always been an overrated fighter imo.Decent and dangerous, though rarely ever looked the good all-rounder he was said to be as soon as the opposition went above mediocre.
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:32 PM   #4
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Default Re: mark johnson :why is he in the HOF ?

btw it's ridiculous he's in over the vast majority of the 60s-80s top Fly's.
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Old 10-26-2012, 03:52 AM   #5
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Default Re: mark johnson :why is he in the HOF ?

As a big fan and someone who thinks he was a super talent that actually beat Marquez the first time round, he should not be in there.

Didn't achieve near enough to get in.

And I mean, how can anyone justify Too Sharp being in there before say Santos Laciar?

Problem is, guys that select the IBHOF fighters don't know that much about the lighter weight fighters.
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Old 10-26-2012, 03:56 AM   #6
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Default Re: mark johnson :why is he in the HOF ?

As has already been said; it's because of bias towards western little guys.

Gushiken shouldn't be in there either IMO and neither should Yuh. Zapata should, as should Ebihara, probably Borkorsor and definitely Laciar.

Worst thing is, a bit bigger I know, but no Harry Jeffra or Ernesto Marcel yet!
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Old 10-26-2012, 06:00 AM   #7
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Default Re: mark johnson :why is he in the HOF ?

Grim. But who takes it seriously amongs serious fans, really? It's just a parade of back-slappng at the end of the day, we all know inductions are pretty disastrous.
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Old 10-26-2012, 06:44 AM   #8
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Default Re: mark johnson :why is he in the HOF ?

True. But if Chang gets in it means there's some prestige
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Old 10-26-2012, 08:25 AM   #9
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Default Re: mark johnson :why is he in the HOF ?

Very skilled fighter but his resume isnt that impressive.

Certainly not a good enough resume to be a first ballot HOF.

Thats a joke considering that guys like Watanabe,Arbachakov etc arent even in the ballots to be voted in not to mention others like Laciar,Curry,Zapata,Marcel etc that are in the ballot and still dont manage to get in and this guy with a weaker resume gets in at first try.

IMO even Hamed who has been in the ballot for a few years now has a better case to be inducted than Johnson.
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:04 AM   #10
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Default Re: mark johnson :why is he in the HOF ?

I think he was put in the last induction? He was my all time favorite small fighter. A great fighter and great guy. I think he should be in
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:34 AM   #11
aduriz
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Default Re: mark johnson :why is he in the HOF ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladerunner View Post

IMO even Hamed who has been in the ballot for a few years now has a better case to be inducted than Johnson.
true .

- lineal champion
- beat all belt holders in the division
- his wins over vasquez and kelly are better than anything on mark's resume

Quote:
Originally Posted by salty trunks View Post
I think he was put in the last induction? He was my all time favorite small fighter. A great fighter and great guy. I think he should be in
i liked the guy too , but what part of his career do you think merits a HOF induction ?
and he's the favorite small fighter for a lot of people , mostly because he's the only fighter they got to watch on TV
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Old 10-26-2012, 11:52 AM   #12
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Default Re: mark johnson :why is he in the HOF ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aduriz View Post
it's weird that he got inducted in his first year of eligibility , while other smaller fighters with better resumes were / still ignored ( EX : Masamori Tokuyama , Yoko Gushiken ,Myung-Woo Yuh , Hilario Zapata... )

let's break down his career

IBF Flyweight title ( 1996 -1999 ) :

- won a vacant belt
- never had a unification fight
- never faced one single world champion at 112 , neither former nor future
- never fought the 112 lineal champions of that period ( Arbachakov , sasakul , pacquiao )
- most his opponents ( ALL of them ? ) were IBF mandatory challengers

one more thing , he never fought outside of the us , a country that produced only 3 flyweight beltholders in the last 50 years . also , barely fought any notable east /southeast asian fighters , the region with the highest number of flyweight titlist / contenders . in other words , he was playing in the minor leagues as far as the 112 division is concerned .

IBF Super Flyweight Champion ( 1999-2000 )


- again , won a vacant belt
- defended it against a fringe contender who never held a title

he then went on to lose twice to the first world champion he ever faced , rafael marquez .

WBO Super Flyweight Champion ( 2003- 2004 )

- beat a green fernando montiel in a close fight for the-then lightly regarded WBO belt , his best win
- defended this belt against two guys who never / would never held a title in their career .
- brutally knocked out in his last two fights against two world champions , ivan hernandez and jhonny gonzalez .


when it's all said and done , this HOF fighter fought 4 world champions . his record against them ? 1- 4 , and that one win was a close fight that could've easily been a draw .

so the question is : do you think mark johnson is HOF worthy ? and if you think so , what part of his career reinforces this ?
good post .

He is not HOF worthy .

Neither r Borkhorsor and Rafael Marquez .
Neither r Ricardo Lopez and Orlando Canizales whom both somehow got in .

D HOF commission is composed mainly of clueless idiots .

Santos Laciar is not such a clear example of some1 whom should b in either .
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Old 10-26-2012, 02:02 PM   #13
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Default Re: mark johnson :why is he in the HOF ?

For those who saw him fight in his prime, he was a heck of a fighter, which is why none of the other champs and few top fighters wanted to fight him. They avoided him like the plague. He was a very fast and skillful southpaw with enough pop to get respect. He was a champ for a solid five years, which is pretty impressive at the lighter weights. He was basically forced to move up in weight to get fights. He was at his best at 112, pretty darn good at 115, and didn't get beaten in a title fight until he went up to bantam.
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Old 10-26-2012, 02:20 PM   #14
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Default Re: mark johnson :why is he in the HOF ?

IMO he was never the 'champ' at fly.
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Old 10-26-2012, 02:40 PM   #15
aduriz
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Default Re: mark johnson :why is he in the HOF ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by apollack View Post
For those who saw him fight in his prime, he was a heck of a fighter, which is why none of the other champs and few top fighters wanted to fight him. They avoided him like the plague. He was a very fast and skillful southpaw with enough pop to get respect. He was a champ for a solid five years, which is pretty impressive at the lighter weights. He was basically forced to move up in weight to get fights. He was at his best at 112, pretty darn good at 115, and didn't get beaten in a title fight until he went up to bantam.

he was a "titleist " not a champ, and for less than 3 years at 112 .

before talking about the other fighters from other divisions who supposedly ducked him , let's not forget that he made no effort to fight the best guys in his division . why not a fight in japan , against Arbachakov , the lineal champion of that time ? foreign flyweight beltholders can make up to 300 K ( sony boy jaro got 200 K for his last fight against igarashi ) , bigger than any payday a flyweight could make in the US .so no money excuse here .

there was nothing impressive about his reign at 115 either .. the best 115 fighters of that era :

Gerry Peñalosa
In-Joo Cho
Masamori Tokuyama ( ATG )
gamez
tokada etc...

didn't fight any of these guys at 115 , instead he won a vacant belt , and defended it against a gatekeeper / fringe contender .


" and didn't get beaten in a title fight until he went up to bantam. "


incidentally , that was his first meeting with a world champion / beltholder .....go figure
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