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Old 11-25-2012, 05:38 PM   #196
lufcrazy
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

I think he's still confused as to what is being said.
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Old 11-25-2012, 05:47 PM   #197
edward morbius
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

Let's look at expert opinion

Ring Magazine July, 1946, Jack Johnson "A Champ Recalls"

""There is only one man who stands out today, Joe Louis, and in my humble opinion, not only could I have whipped Joe when I was at my best, but I'll name Sam Langford, Jeffries, Corbett, Choynski, Tom Sharkey, Fitz and Tommy Ryan among some of the old timers who would have taken Joe into camp and Jack Dempsey among those who followed me."

Nat Fleischer Ring Magazine April 1959

"There is scarcely an old-timer who would give Robinson a chance against Stanley Ketchel."

Okay, so according to these two experts, the 155 lb Tommy Ryan would be too much for Joe Louis and Sugar Ray Robinson does not even have a chance against Ketchel.

As for film, it you can't see what is happening on a film how do you know anything is happening?

And I wonder why Tunney studied films of Dempsey if it was useless.

Last edited by edward morbius; 11-25-2012 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 11-25-2012, 05:47 PM   #198
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
Problem is....they were in a much better position to pick a winner accurately than YOU. They were experts, you are not. They knew both men, you did not. They saw both men live in action..you cannot. Could they all be wrong, possibly, but they are far more likely to be right than some non entity like yourself dreaming and imagining how each may have fought one another.
I pick Dempsey.

But the question of who you pick doesn't have any impact upon the OP.

The point is, your ramblings about who picks Dempsey to beat Wills has no impact upon it either.
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Old 11-25-2012, 05:58 PM   #199
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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Originally Posted by HOUDINI View Post
Certainly and responded appropriately. It does matter what was written by the experts of the day. History matters. Rewriting history 90 years after the fact is where the problem exists.
I have one question for you....

Would the experts of the day diasagree with the fact that Dempsey failed to meet his number 1 contender during his entire title reign?
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:15 PM   #200
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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Originally Posted by Pachilles View Post
I have one question for you....

Would the experts of the day diasagree with the fact that Dempsey failed to meet his number 1 contender during his entire title reign?
A few points of contention:
1- Harry Wills surely deserved a title shot at Jack Dempsey.Common sense and history shows that...
2- Dempsey and Wills did sign for a match with a Michigan promoter
named Floyd Fitszimmons but the bout was canceled because the
promoter failed to come up with the money...
3- There were legitimate fears those days that race riots might ensue
following a match between a white Dempsey and Wills for a heavyweight
title bout as occured in Reno following the Johnson/Jeffries bout in Reno...
Legitimate fears those days no doubt...
4- The above cannot be denied as tons of writers and columns of the day
wrote about this sad fact...
5- Dempsey by all accounts would have been a favorite over the taller
slower style of Harry Wills...Style makes fights and Wills did not have the
style to whip a bob and weave style of a Tyson or Frazier edition of a Jack
Dempsey.
6- The writers, boxers, trainers of those days, seeing the two men fight
were in a better and more credible position to judge the abilities of Wills ,
Dempsey and other fighters of the 1920s against each other than posters
of today 90 years later...Facts become distorted each decade later...
7- Harry Wills past his peak was beaten by an Uzcudun and Jack Sharkey
after Dempsey retired...
8- Wills was a fine gentleman who in retirement became a successful
real estate businessman who in the 1940s I saw standing a few feet away from me in Stillman's gym watching the fighters sparring.. A tall
distinguished looking man who didn't look like an ex fighter...If I a
youngster then, knew what I know now ,I would have asked him about
the very questions bugging ESB now ? But as Bernard Shaw wrote," it is a shame that youth is wasted on the young ".
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:19 PM   #201
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

Quote:
Originally Posted by edward morbius View Post
I saw the Lombardi Packers (for non-Americans, an NFL team which won five championships in the 1960's) live from the stands, so if I say they would wipe the field with any modern team, my opinion is just so much more valuable than guys who only can watch them on film.

"silent movie images"

Shown at proper projection speeds, silent film footage is quite good. Stock footage from the silent era was used in movies and TV into the 1960's with most viewers none the wiser. Film grain is sometimes noticable, but otherwise the black and white image fits in pretty well with b/w film taken decades later, as does the movement.

Dempsey is well represented on film, and the irony of this position is that he looks good on film. Film is his best defense that the high rating of him back in the day was within reason. It is the cold, hard facts of his record which raise the severe issues.
Firstly, Jim Taylor is the greatest football player of all time.

Secondly, Dempsey shows some glaring flaws on film, tho part of it is mental rather than technique.

Thirdly, Jim Taylor is the greatest athlete of all time.
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:28 PM   #202
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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Firstly, Jim Taylor is the greatest football player of all time.

Secondly, Dempsey shows some glaring flaws on film, tho part of it is mental rather than technique.

Thirdly, Jim Taylor is the greatest athlete of all time.
S, why do I think that you are a Green Bay Packer fan ?
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:31 PM   #203
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

Only guy to take a rushing title from Jim Brown.
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:40 PM   #204
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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Only guy to take a rushing title from Jim Brown.
When he didn't have that skirt chasing gold domed gambler taking up all the carries...
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:51 PM   #205
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

And Brown had a broken arm. But sure I'll blame Hornung. Boo Notre Dame! Hiss! You didn't deserve that Heisman!
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Old 11-25-2012, 09:02 PM   #206
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

Experts of the day would be in a better position to know why the fight never came off. However historians since that time have well documented the events that prevented the fight from happening. There is general agreement that Dempsey wanted the fight to occur but Rickard and most of the boxing world did not. There was a growing progressive fraction that wanted black hwts to get title shots that were deserved. However this was a definite minority. There was a long standing American tradition that black hwt fighters would not be given the chance to fight for the title. No wonder that the first hwt champion to give a back a title shot was Burns, a Canadian.
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:12 AM   #207
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

Did anyone ever even talk about "number 1 contender" until Ring magazine started it's rankings ?
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:57 AM   #208
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

I'm not sure if there are many examples of their using that exact form of language, but you know as well as anyone he was talked about as a threat to Dempsey's title from speculation about who he would meet after Willard until the Tunney fight in terms that equal the same (for most of that period of time).
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Old 11-26-2012, 05:04 AM   #209
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
I'm not sure if there are many examples of their using that exact form of language, but you know as well as anyone he was talked about as a threat to Dempsey's title from speculation about who he would meet after Willard until the Tunney fight in terms that equal the same (for most of that period of time).
He was not always portrayed as the pre-eminent 'stand-out' contender though.
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Old 11-26-2012, 05:12 AM   #210
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Default Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list?

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He was not always portrayed as the pre-eminent 'stand-out' contender though.
Is anyone, ever? There's always someone else out there and most especially when the latest is being touted. Nobody was talking about Wills in the run up to Dempsey-Carpantier for example. It doesn't mean he was a more worthy challenger.

Wills was as clear cut a challenger as existed pre-Ring, and more even than Langford and Jackson, the most denied.
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