Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list? - Page 2

HOUDINI · 11-19-2012, 03:59 PM

Big difference between the two. I know of no one during that time who felt Wills would beat Dempsey. Big slow moving hwts were Dempseys meat.

McGrain · 11-19-2012, 04:13 PM

Between what two? The odds on Holyfield beating Tyson were so long that it changed the way gambling on boxing was done in Vegas forever, it was insane.

PowerPuncher · 11-19-2012, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

Big difference between the two. I know of no one during that time who felt Wills would beat Dempsey. Big slow moving hwts were Dempseys meat.

Try Dempsey's management and probably Dempsey himself, amongst commentators of the time. And since when was Wills slow?

PowerPuncher · 11-19-2012, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orriray59

List of Wills' notable victories:

Luis Firpo
Jeff Clark
Kid Norfolk
Sam Langford
Gunboat Smith
Fred Fulton
Joe Jeanette
Sam McVey
Battling Jim Johnson

List of Dempsey's notable victories:
Luis Firpo
Tommy Gibbons
Georges Carpentier
Bill Brennan
Billy Miske
Jess Willard
Gunboat Smith
Battling Levinsky
Fred Fulton

Good lists but I'd add

Dempsey

Sharkey
Carl Morris

Wills

Bill Tate
Weinert
Denver Ed Martin
John Lester Johnson

KuRuPT · 11-19-2012, 05:39 PM

Could you.. based on resume alone, sure, would I, no.

HOUDINI · 11-19-2012, 06:01 PM

Once again...there is a huge difference between speculating that Wills could beat Dempsey but quite another that experts at that time actually felt Wills had a chance. Arcel did not think so, Fleischer did not think so, Tunney did not think so, Sharkey did not think so, Greb did not think so. One man who knew Wills better than anyone in the ring was Langford. Langford did not think Wills could beat Dempsey either. Langford stated that Dempsey was the greatest hwt he had ever seen. Anyway the list is endless of the experts of that time who felt Wills had little chance. Now you can all speculate that he could and that's fine but as mentioned there is a huge difference in this case between speculating he could win vs what the general expert opinion was at that time.

McGrain · 11-19-2012, 06:19 PM

Nobody has to speculate that Wills would beat Dempsey to rank Wills above Dempsey. Based upon what they really actually did in the real actual world you can rank Wills above Dempsey reasonably.

PowerPuncher · 11-19-2012, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

Once again...there is a huge difference between speculating that Wills could beat Dempsey but quite another that experts at that time actually felt Wills had a chance. Arcel did not think so, Fleischer did not think so, Tunney did not think so, Sharkey did not think so, Greb did not think so. One man who knew Wills better than anyone in the ring was Langford. Langford did not think Wills could beat Dempsey either. Langford stated that Dempsey was the greatest hwt he had ever seen. Anyway the list is endless of the experts of that time who felt Wills had little chance. Now you can all speculate that he could and that's fine but as mentioned there is a huge difference in this case between speculating he could win vs what the general expert opinion was at that time.

* Dempsey thought Wills would beat him though

mr. magoo · 11-19-2012, 08:22 PM

I've already seen people place Wills in their top 10, while completely omitting Dempsey. Is it rightful? I honestly don't know. I think Wills arguably beat a larger array of men who had world class ability for the day, than Dempsey did. No he was never officially the heavyweight champ of the world, and held the sanctioned belt known as the " colored title.", which I guess would be comparable to an alphabet strap today. But he did ride right alongside Dempsey as the second best heavyweight of the era for as long as Jack reigned and was even taking care of a lot of Jack's would be challengers for him.

HOUDINI · 11-19-2012, 08:59 PM

Untrue. Dempsey signed to fight Wills at least once, possibly twice. No evidence whatsoever that Dempsey did not want to fight Wills in fact he opening said he wanted to fight him.

Dempseys style and skill were ground breaking in boxing history. He was the hwt champion of the world for 7 years and was renowned as one of the greatest hwt champions of all time. You cannot say any of this concerning Wills. Anyone rating Wills and not Dempsey does not know what they are talking about.

NoNeck · 11-19-2012, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

Big difference between the two. I know of no one during that time who felt Wills would beat Dempsey. Big slow moving hwts were Dempseys meat.

Do you know of any black people's opinions during the time?

HOUDINI · 11-19-2012, 09:39 PM

Yes. Sam Langford who fought Wills more than anyone stated Dempsey would beat Wills. He also stated Dempsey was the greatest hwt he had ever seen.

NoNeck · 11-19-2012, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

Yes. Sam Langford who fought Wills more than anyone stated Dempsey would beat Wills. He also stated Dempsey was the greatest hwt he had ever seen.

And he might've had some personal bias, considering that Wills got the best of him, basically. I'll wait. He doesn't represent the opinions of blacks.

burt bienstock · 11-19-2012, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoNeck

Do you know of any black people's opinions during the time?

YES...Sam Langford...

NoNeck · 11-19-2012, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

YES...Sam Langford...

Look up at my post. Larry Holmes says Tyson doesn't hit hard.

11-19-2012, 03:59 PM	#16
HOUDINI Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 708 vCash: 500	Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list? Big difference between the two. I know of no one during that time who felt Wills would beat Dempsey. Big slow moving hwts were Dempseys meat.
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11-19-2012, 04:13 PM	#17
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 34,759 vCash: 1000	Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list? Between what two? The odds on Holyfield beating Tyson were so long that it changed the way gambling on boxing was done in Vegas forever, it was insane.
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11-19-2012, 05:39 PM	#20
KuRuPT Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 1,628 vCash: 500	Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list? Could you.. based on resume alone, sure, would I, no.
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11-19-2012, 06:01 PM	#21
HOUDINI Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 708 vCash: 500	Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list? Once again...there is a huge difference between speculating that Wills could beat Dempsey but quite another that experts at that time actually felt Wills had a chance. Arcel did not think so, Fleischer did not think so, Tunney did not think so, Sharkey did not think so, Greb did not think so. One man who knew Wills better than anyone in the ring was Langford. Langford did not think Wills could beat Dempsey either. Langford stated that Dempsey was the greatest hwt he had ever seen. Anyway the list is endless of the experts of that time who felt Wills had little chance. Now you can all speculate that he could and that's fine but as mentioned there is a huge difference in this case between speculating he could win vs what the general expert opinion was at that time.
Top

11-19-2012, 06:19 PM	#22
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 34,759 vCash: 1000	Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list? Nobody has to speculate that Wills would beat Dempsey to rank Wills above Dempsey. Based upon what they really actually did in the real actual world you can rank Wills above Dempsey reasonably.
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11-19-2012, 08:22 PM	#24
mr. magoo Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Chicago, Illinois USA Posts: 11,853 vCash: 1000	Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list? I've already seen people place Wills in their top 10, while completely omitting Dempsey. Is it rightful? I honestly don't know. I think Wills arguably beat a larger array of men who had world class ability for the day, than Dempsey did. No he was never officially the heavyweight champ of the world, and held the sanctioned belt known as the " colored title.", which I guess would be comparable to an alphabet strap today. But he did ride right alongside Dempsey as the second best heavyweight of the era for as long as Jack reigned and was even taking care of a lot of Jack's would be challengers for him.
Top

11-19-2012, 08:59 PM	#25
HOUDINI Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 708 vCash: 500	Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list? Untrue. Dempsey signed to fight Wills at least once, possibly twice. No evidence whatsoever that Dempsey did not want to fight Wills in fact he opening said he wanted to fight him. Dempseys style and skill were ground breaking in boxing history. He was the hwt champion of the world for 7 years and was renowned as one of the greatest hwt champions of all time. You cannot say any of this concerning Wills. Anyone rating Wills and not Dempsey does not know what they are talking about.
Top

11-19-2012, 09:39 PM	#27
HOUDINI Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 708 vCash: 500	Re: Is it feasible to rank Wills over Dempsey in an ATG list? Yes. Sam Langford who fought Wills more than anyone stated Dempsey would beat Wills. He also stated Dempsey was the greatest hwt he had ever seen.
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