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Old 06-22-2007, 10:31 AM   #1
quintonjacksonfan
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Default Do you give Leonard or Lewis any credit

for their wins against McCall 2 or Duran 2. Both guys quit and it wasn't from

taken much punishment. Did Lewis or Leonard do anything that made them fold

I'm just curious if those should be considered quality wins

Last edited by quintonjacksonfan; 06-22-2007 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:35 AM   #2
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Default Re: Do you give Leonard or Lewis any credit

I give them plenty of credit.
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:36 AM   #3
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Default Re: Do you give Leonard or Lewis any credit

Well, I give them some credit. They proved better by not quitting.

Same applies to Clay against Liston.

I'd rather forget those fights, they were all completely farces but Clay, Leonard and Lewis were not at fault, and Liston, Duran and McCall were to blame, so it counts for something.
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:38 AM   #4
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Default Re: Do you give Leonard or Lewis any credit

I give them alot, if not full credit.

Both showed themself to be the superior fighter prior to Duran and McCall falling apart.

Duran was consistently having weight issues and being 'off'. Those are the common excuses and there are consistent examples of this in his career. Same with McCall. McCall has broken down numerous times in numerous big fights and has still won.
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:38 AM   #5
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Default Re: Do you give Leonard or Lewis any credit

McCaal didn't quit.
He suffered a nervous breakdown and the ref stopped it due to crying in the ring !!
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:43 AM   #6
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Default Re: Do you give Leonard or Lewis any credit

I think Leonard made Duran snap.

I don't think Lewis made McCall snap. He seemed pretty ****ed up before he even got in the ring. of course you could say the same about Duran, but I don't think Duran quits if Ray didn't clown him. McCall may have quit no matter who he was facing that night.

Could be wrong though.
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:43 AM   #7
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Default Re: Do you give Leonard or Lewis any credit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggamuffin
McCaal didn't quit.
He suffered a nervous breakdown and the ref stopped it due to crying in the ring !!
Well he was crying at the start of the first fight too. Perhaps McCall gave up when he realised he wasn't going to catch Lennox walking forward onto one of his bombs this time.
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Old 06-22-2007, 10:48 AM   #8
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Default Re: Do you give Leonard or Lewis any credit

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Originally Posted by Doppleganger
Well he was crying at the start of the first fight too. Perhaps McCall gave up when he realised he wasn't going to catch Lennox walking forward onto one of his bombs this time.
When McCall realised Steward had shored up Lennox's defensive flaws to the right hand the tears were always going to keep flowing, unlike fight 1

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Old 06-22-2007, 11:25 AM   #9
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Default Re: Do you give Leonard or Lewis any credit

Yeah, I give SRL all the credit in the world for what happened to Duran in the SupperDome. Ray knew that Duran always ate and drank like a pig after weighing in for his fights, so when Roberto wasn't looking, Ray slipped some Metamucil into his refreshment.
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Old 06-22-2007, 11:43 AM   #10
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Default Re: Do you give Leonard or Lewis any credit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
Yeah, I give SRL all the credit in the world for what happened to Duran in the SupperDome. Ray knew that Duran always ate and drank like a pig after weighing in for his fights, so when Roberto wasn't looking, Ray slipped some Metamucil into his refreshment.
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Old 06-22-2007, 12:22 PM   #11
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Default Re: Do you give Leonard or Lewis any credit

I still don't know if McCall quit, or was playing mind games. He has made himself cry before fights start. Lewis was definitley winning the fight. I will always wonder if McCall was trying to phsyc Lewis out, and swam him Mayorga style a little later. When I was watching the fight, I was honestly expecting him to do something like that. Lennox was winning that fight until it was stopped. It is not his fault Oliver went crazy. He deserved the win.

Leonard made Duran quit, because Duran couldn't hit him like he wanted to. You can say Duran was out of shape, weight drained, not up for it mentally, to slow for a determined to box Leonard, or whatever. Leonard's biography said they saw Duran drinking a thermos full of beef broth after the weigh in. How they knew what was in his thermos, I don't know. Leonard toyed with Duran, taunted him, and was too difficult for Duran to find that night. Duran got frustrated, and quit. Leonard made Duran fold. He deserves credit for that. If Duran wasn't fully prepared, that was his fault.
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Old 06-22-2007, 01:27 PM   #12
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Default Re: Do you give Leonard or Lewis any credit

All I can say for certain is this...if both Duran and McCall had been belting their opponents around the ring, they wouldn't have chucked in the towel the way they did.

They got frustrated and upset due to what Leonard and Lewis were doing.
Leonard in particular should get full credit.
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Old 06-22-2007, 01:29 PM   #13
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Default Re: Do you give Leonard or Lewis any credit

Yes, full credit.

In Lewis' case less only due to the lesser calibre of the opponent.

But I give him the credit he deserves for beating Oliver McCall.
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Old 06-22-2007, 01:42 PM   #14
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Default Re: Do you give Leonard or Lewis any credit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homicidal Hank
They're wins. I don't know what more the winners or their fans want, beyond people who have a mental disorder that compels them to revel in somebody else's misery.

Lewis is satisfied with the situation. Leonard obviously isn't. It bugs him to no end that Duran quit, so much so that he pretends that he had something to do with it. It drove Maxim up the wall that Robinson quit in their light heavyweight match. When everybody talked about Robinson quitting from the heat, Maxim kept telling everybody who would listen, "I didn't quit because of the heat." He wanted credit for Robinson quitting. Not logical. He got the win. That ought to be good enough.

Sometimes a fighter is so overwhelmed by a superior opponent that they quit because they know there's no chance. Why take unnecessary punishment in a hopeless situation? Sometimes an injured or frustrated fighter quits because he's got nothing left to prove. You can see this in Chavez's surrender to de la Hoya, or in Pep's surrender to Saddler (twice). Sometimes a fighter quits because he is too sick to continue. The two obvious examples are Robinson against Maxim and Duran against Leonard. McCall is an interesting case. He appeared to not have the mental wherewithall at the time to handle the pressure. He had a nervous breakdown. Of course he couldn't continue. It was a sad situation.

How people react to fighters who quit depends a lot on how they feel about the participants. Because most people adored Robinson, his quitting against Maxim was excused. Robinson didn't need to go the hospital or anything. He recovered in the dressing room and was seen chatting with reporters and well-wishers afterwards. Not a problem because Robinson was the idol. In the case of Duran and Leonard, however, so many people liked the flashy Leonard and hated Duran for beating Ray in Montreal that they held Duran to a different standard. For many people, Duran wasn't allowed to quit when too sick to continue. Because Leonard was an idol to so many, they spun things in the opposite way and even invented a fable about why Duran quit - and, like all good myths, that fable continues to stand in the face of all known fact.

So, yes, Leonard and Lewis get credit because they have a W on their records. They didn't lose or draw, so that's to their credit. Whether it means the same thing as a knockout or overwhelming decision victory I think is obvious: no, of course not, because it was in fact not either of those things.

People make too big a deal out of quitting in boxing. People quit in other sports because of injury or illness. There is no shame in quitting. Boxing is a dangerous sport. If you can't defend yourself because of abdominal and muscle cramps, then you should quit. Why be irrational or stubborn when it comes to messages your body is sending you? I think Archie Moore wanting to be knocked out against Marciano instead of permitting the officials to stop the fight reflects real stupidity on Moore's part. He was going to lose. Why should he continue?

It's a petty and, frankly, rather sick person who takes joy in an athlete's misery. It's a sadist who wants to see a fighter continue fighting when there's no hope of victory. Boxing doesn't need these type of people. It's a sport. Show some sportman's like character, for Pete's sake.
Uh, Robinson was in the hospital for three months after the Maxim fight. Many said he was close to death.
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Old 06-23-2007, 04:09 AM   #15
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Default Re: Do you give Leonard or Lewis any credit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Well, I give them some credit. They proved better by not quitting.

Same applies to Clay against Liston.

I'd rather forget those fights, they were all completely farces but Clay, Leonard and Lewis were not at fault, and Liston, Duran and McCall were to blame, so it counts for something.
In all three cases, the winners MADE the losers quit.

Had they not quit, they faced further embarrassment, humiliation and the KO.
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