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Old 11-20-2012, 01:25 PM   #16
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Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

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I believe you misquoted me


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Old 11-20-2012, 02:31 PM   #17
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Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

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Hagler had more advantages. Leonard used his advantages better. Hagler went into that fight with entitlement issues and thought he would win anyway, that cost him the fight. Leonard knew he would lose unless he followed a gameplan perfectly.
This. Leonard was a master at having a game plan and not letting himself be taken out of it. From DuranII through Duran III. I don't think I would have bet against him evnen if on paper his foe was better than him.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:54 PM   #18
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Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

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Old 11-20-2012, 08:03 PM   #19
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Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

SRL always had a mental phycological advantage, he knew his challenge would freak Hagler out & sow the seeds of doubt into a paranoid moody Marvin, Why now??? "Whats he seen??? How can he possibly think he can beat when he chickened out 5 years ago!!! Leonard knew how to push Haglers self distruct button & get marvins inferiority drivin dual chip on the shoulder complex running at full blast.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

Dominant middleweight champion takes on the retired former welterweight champion, only a couple years removed from eye surgery, who looked poor against Kevin Howard?

Are we seriously questioning who had the advantages? It was an upset for a reason!
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:46 PM   #21
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Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

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Dominant middleweight champion takes on the retired former welterweight champion, only a couple years removed from eye surgery, who looked poor against Kevin Howard?

Are we seriously questioning who had the advantages? It was an upset for a reason!
This. Thank you. It just amazes me how all the revisionist historians looooove to tout how "opportunistic" and "crafty" Leonard was in arranging for this fight.

Leonard had one fight in five years, for chrissakes. Fighting at an unfamiliar weight. Look, I'm no Leonard fan, and Hagler was my first boxing hero, but fair's fair. The man had AT LEAST as much going against him as Hagler did. Stop making this into some political chess game where the only reason Hagler lost his title was because he was outmaneuvered at the contract signing. I seem to remember a fight along the way, against a champion unbeaten for a decade.

Get the **** off it already. You're boring. AND you're wrong. Bunch of ****ing Pepes around here lately.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:56 PM   #22
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Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

I can't see any reasonable argument to suggest that Leonard had any sort of advantage. He had fought all but two times in five years, was three years removed from his last bout and looked less than impressive in his last outing. He was ascending to a weight that he had never before fought at, and worse yet, meeting its greatest resident. He was a boxer who relied on speed, stamina and workrate and going up against a puncher which by all standards, was more ideal at that stage in their careers. He was picked to get absolutely destroyed by Hagler by nearly all reputable experts, and rightfully so. There is a lot of talk that Leonard laid low for years, waiting for Hagler to diminish, but I don't know if I buy it. Inactivity has long been proven to be a boxer's worst enemy and Marvin was still quite dangerous when Ray took that fight. Why didn't Leonard challenge Hagler in 1983, shortly after Marvin barely decisioned an aging Duran? And it wasn't as though there weren't other lucrative paydays available with a lesser risk factor. It may be true that Hagler had lost a step or two, but Leonard wasn't exactly the "sugar" of old who plowed through the welterweight division in the early 80's either. No way should Hagler be labled as the more disadvantaged of the two.. It would be the worst case of revisionism we've ever seen.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:10 PM   #23
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Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

It's obviously Hagler.Surely only someone new to the sport who hasn't read up on anything regarding the bout yet would ask this?

Sal and Magna are spot on here.

****, Frank Tate or MIchael Olajide would have had the advantages of Leonard at that point on paper, to say nothing of an established and seeming almost unbeatably great champion.
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:47 PM   #24
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Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

Coming back from a long, long layoff is tough as hell. TOUGH. AS. HELL.

A layoff after surgery and forced inactivity? Trust me. It's worse. It is so, so difficult.

Leonard proved his greatness with that one win. Demonstrated everything high class. Trained his hardest to get back. Developed a keen and intuitive game plan. Demonstrated discipline, creativity. Used the gifts he had to their best, and neutralized Hagler's strengths. Listened to his people. And pulled off a monumental upset against an ATG champion coming off some of his better wins when he spent the second half of the fight exhausted?

Sorry, folks. That's just incredible. Hagler had all the aces. Leonard bluffed him out of one in the negotiations, and bluffed him all in with a pair of threes.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:11 AM   #25
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Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

And amazingly, I still rate Hearns I higher. Wasn't favored in that one either Magna, despite having already fought and beaten Duran, Benitez, Kalule, Green, Price, Shields, Ranzany, Chiaverini, Shields, Mayweather, Gant. Every one of them champions or highly rated contenders; Kalule and Chiaverini at 154 lbs.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:17 AM   #26
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Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

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And amazingly, I still rate Hearns I higher. Wasn't favored in that one either Magna, despite having already fought and beaten Duran, Benitez, Kalule, Green, Price, Shields, Ranzany, Chiaverini, Shields, Mayweather, Gant. Every one of them champions or highly rated contenders; Kalule and Chiaverini at 154 lbs.
We're awed by destroyers in boxing. A man who boxes first isnt often tabbed to beat an unbeatable knockout phenom who often appears skilled as well.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:20 AM   #27
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Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

Hearns justified it with his performance I think, Leonard walked through hell to snatch that win from imminent defeat.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:22 AM   #28
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Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

I sort of agree with the consensus, but I think that duranimal has a point that people don't give quite enough credence to, re: Hagler's mentality.

Whatever the disadvantages of his layoff, considerable though they might have been, Ray definitely had the mental measure of Marvin and a much clearer understanding of the lay of the land, so to speak. And it mattered. Doesn't take away too much from the excellence of what Leonard achieved, of course it doesn't, but it lends perspective to the situation.

Leonard knew 110% about himself and Hagler physically and mentally, where they were at the time and that he himself still had more than enough about him to not be on the end of a beating, regardless of the outcome. Which meant he had nothing to lose and everything to gain whereas Hagler, financial reward aside, had everything to lose and nothing to gain.

The most likely outcome is that Ray loses but isn't completely outclassed or humiliated (which isn't a million miles away from what actually happened). So what? He walks away having failed bravely with his reputation in tact, maybe even slightly enhanced, and his wallet a lot bigger. And Hagler will have only beaten an inactive, faded welterweight in a less than impressive manner as he did Duran. His legacy is none the better for it similar to how Monzon's was for hammering Napoles despite Monzon looking much more impressive in doing so.

Hugh McIlvanney said that for Hagler, nothing less than a brutal, emphatic ko win was going to be good enough in the eyes of the public and - more importantly - the judges, despite Hagler being very much on the slide. That anything less would only detract and never gain real acceptance. And he was right imo. Ray realised this where Marvin didn't, and the latter had lost before he even started.

Leonard was the superstar with all the bargaining power and he was very adept at spinning perception and swaying people to his side both in the ring and out of it (he'd make a good politician I think, and that isn't really a good thing). He played Hagler for an absolute mug and Marvin knows it, which I think is more the real reason he's still so bitter and angry about it all in spite of Leonard getting the nod and riding off into the sunset laughing his bollocks off. He's probably far more pissed off with himself than with Leonard. Those first few rounds in the orthodox stance are probably seared on the inside of his eyelids at night.

As for the fight itself, I thought Marv edged it close but clear last time I watched it, which was about 7 years ago and neither man looked particularly good iirc. My memory's appalling though. Credit to Ray in the second half of the fight; he gutted and flurried it out like it was nobody's business.

Nothing wrong per se with how he made sure the deck was stacked a bit more evenly from a certain point of view as long you acknowledge, as Leonard himself does, that he knew it and did it. He had means at his disposal and he used them, Machiavellian though they were, and Hagler fell for it before he could see what was going on.

Top achievement from a great fighter. He's still a cunt though and Hagler isn't exactly my cup of char either.
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:54 AM   #29
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Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

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I don't the think the war with Mugabi made him diminish, but he had two wars in a row with Hearns and Mugabi, and after Hearns he was off a year.. Then he was off another year and fought Leonard. I think he was rusty and I think after Hearns he had a hard time motivating himself. Marvin is a very sensitive fighter and introverted. For him to put his all in the Hearns fight was impressive, but he might have put his all out mentally and physically. With Mugabi he looked sort of soft and his punches were not crisp. Leonard saw this and said he wanted to fight Hagler.

Ray was not prime and Hagler should have won the fight. Marvin was not aggressive in the first two rounds the way he should be and he came out right handed. Had he come out southpaw he would have taken away Ray's momentum or rather Ray would not have had the momentum and confidence he got by winning the first two rounds in my mind.

contrary to popular belief, this fight was about even if u ask the average guy on the street

many the average man on the street-the pick was Leonard, including those in the know like Hearns, were predicting a Leonard win

Antuofuermo having noted hagler's regression, said it himself on an espn interview "any of Hagler's previous title challengers, ANY of them, could beat marvin right now"

To be honest with u, Hagler was about 80% peak in the Hearns fight. 45% after that, and just a fraction, say 20% at most following the Mugabi fight. Those that dismiss this fact do so as not to take the polish off Leoanrd's achievement. They NEED this win on account of Leonard's resume being so thin

so yes the timing for Leonard was right. In fact, JUST right

PS: God bless Hector Camacho. may your wounds heal quikly
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:01 AM   #30
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Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

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contrary to popular belief, this fight was about even if u ask the average guy on the street

many the average man on the street-the pick was Leonard, including those in the know like Hearns, were predicting a Leonard win

Antuofuermo having noted hagler's regression, said it himself on an espn interview "any of Hagler's previous title challengers, ANY of them, could beat marvin right now"

To be honest with u, Hagler was about 80% peak in the Hearns fight. 45% after that, and just a fraction, say 20% at most following the Mugabi fight. Those that dismiss this fact do so as not to take the polish off Leoanrd's achievement. They NEED this win on account of Leonard's resume being so thin

so yes the timing for Leonard was right. In fact, JUST right

PS: God bless Hector Camacho. may your wounds heal quikly

Howdy Rooster! How goes it these days?
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