Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-21-2012, 11:03 AM   #31
redrooster
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,509
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by salsanchezfan View Post
Howdy Rooster! How goes it these days?
Fine Sal how are u? I sometimes get busy thru out the day

Thanks for the welcome back
redrooster is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 11-21-2012, 12:24 PM   #32
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,177
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin_Ribs View Post
I sort of agree with the consensus, but I think that duranimal has a point that people don't give quite enough credence to, re: Hagler's mentality.

Whatever the disadvantages of his layoff, considerable though they might have been, Ray definitely had the mental measure of Marvin and a much clearer understanding of the lay of the land, so to speak. And it mattered. Doesn't take away too much from the excellence of what Leonard achieved, of course it doesn't, but it lends perspective to the situation.

Leonard knew 110% about himself and Hagler physically and mentally,
This is a very strange thing to say about someone who's only had one fight in five years and never fought at MW before. How much can you really know about where you're truly at in such circumstances?

Leonard knew so much about himself at that point that he went with the strategy of staying in the pocket with Hagler up until just a couple of days before the fight. Nearly being KO'd in sparring convinced him it wasn't a good idea to slug it out with Marvin after all.
Bokaj is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 12:26 PM   #33
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,177
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
Coming back from a long, long layoff is tough as hell. TOUGH. AS. HELL.

A layoff after surgery and forced inactivity? Trust me. It's worse. It is so, so difficult.

Leonard proved his greatness with that one win. Demonstrated everything high class. Trained his hardest to get back. Developed a keen and intuitive game plan. Demonstrated discipline, creativity. Used the gifts he had to their best, and neutralized Hagler's strengths. Listened to his people. And pulled off a monumental upset against an ATG champion coming off some of his better wins when he spent the second half of the fight exhausted?

Sorry, folks. That's just incredible. Hagler had all the aces. Leonard bluffed him out of one in the negotiations, and bluffed him all in with a pair of threes.
Nothing to add to this. Nor should anyone else have really.

Spot on.
Bokaj is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 02:50 PM   #34
Tin_Ribs
Me
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South Yorkshire
Posts: 1,397
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
This is a very strange thing to say about someone who's only had one fight in five years and never fought at MW before. How much can you really know about where you're truly at in such circumstances?

Leonard knew so much about himself at that point that he went with the strategy of staying in the pocket with Hagler up until just a couple of days before the fight. Nearly being KO'd in sparring convinced him it wasn't a good idea to slug it out with Marvin after all.
What's strange about it? If I say 99%, or 95%, would that make you happier? The number is a figure of speech. What I'm saying is that I believe Leonard had an extremely strong degree of confidence in his body being no less than up to the task of coping with the slowing version of Hagler, despite the layoff or never having fought at middle. He was an incredibly confident man and prudent/shrewd with it: his career never really indicated otherwise imo, perhaps other than the Norris and Camacho fiascos. Do you think he had less than near 100% confidence in his own abilities? I don't and wouldn't want him not to have. The getting rocked in sparring making him want to box Hagler - which was the obvious way to trouble even the best version of Marv anyway - doesn't make Ray weaker or any less confident in my book, it makes him smart. I get the impression it was what he intended to do from the start anyway (box/shoeshine, that is). If he had no idea of his own limitations then surely he'd have gone out and slugged anyway? From my experience, confident people who know their strengths get conked all the time in sparring; I don't think it's that big a thing.
Tin_Ribs is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 03:47 PM   #35
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,177
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin_Ribs View Post
What's strange about it? If I say 99%, or 95%, would that make you happier? The number is a figure of speech. What I'm saying is that I believe Leonard had an extremely strong degree of confidence in his body being no less than up to the task of coping with the slowing version of Hagler, despite the layoff or never having fought at middle.

He had confidence, yes, but he didn't really know. If you been out that long and fighting in a new weight class you can't know.

The strange thing is that you say he knew what his body could give him, when actually rather the opposite is true. Confidence is good - but it's belief, not knowledge. No matter what he believed, he lacked in actual knowledge.
Bokaj is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 03:56 PM   #36
MagnaNasakki
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,829
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
He had confidence, yes, but he didn't really know. If you been out that long and fighting in a new weight class you can't know.

The strange thing is that you say he knew what his body could give him, when actually rather the opposite is true. Confidence is good - but it's belief, not knowledge. No matter what he believed, he lacked in actual knowledge.
Constructive knowledge vs. Actual knowledge. Shit just got REAL.
MagnaNasakki is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 04:27 PM   #37
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,177
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
Constructive knowledge vs. Actual knowledge. Shit just got REAL.
The more I think about, the more impressive it is that Leonard could keep his cool when his legs went barely half-way through the fight. Things really got real when he got caught hard by Hagler in the 5th with his legs leaving him, but he stuck with it.

Showed so extremely much more maturity than the "deer caught in head-lights" stuff in Montreal. He showed real heart and guts in Montreal, but against Hagler he complemented that with a very cool head.
Bokaj is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 04:43 PM   #38
Tin_Ribs
Me
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South Yorkshire
Posts: 1,397
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
He had confidence, yes, but he didn't really know. If you been out that long and fighting in a new weight class you can't know.

The strange thing is that you say he knew what his body could give him, when actually rather the opposite is true. Confidence is good - but it's belief, not knowledge. No matter what he believed, he lacked in actual knowledge.
OK, it's strange if you say it's strange. I'll retract my ill-advised use of the word 'knew' and say that he had an intuitive and most likely very accurate idea of what his body could give him, on account of it being....well, his body, combined with a native self confidence bolstered by a clear risk/reward sense of how the fight was going to be perceived by both Hagler and the general public.

I was going to do a whole spiel about self belief coming from actual knowledge or potentially empirical evidence as well as paving the way to it, but on the proof thingy, I want you to prove that when Leonard got hurt in that sparring sesh, the offending punch caused reality to splinter and created a dimension parallel to this one where Leonard was really one of those lizard crocodillipig thingymibobs that David Icke says are controlling the world behind the scenes. And that the 11th doctor sealed the void between worlds when he ****ed all the Daleks off into it because they were covered in magnetic void stuff from all that time travel. You've got to admit, it makes for better conversation than being a pedantic bastard.
Tin_Ribs is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 04:54 PM   #39
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,177
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin_Ribs View Post
OK, it's strange if you say it's strange. I'll retract my ill-advised use of the word 'knew' and say that he had an intuitive and most likely very accurate idea of what his body could give him, on account of it being....well, his body, combined with a native self confidence bolstered by a clear risk/reward sense of how the fight was going to be perceived by both Hagler and the general public.

I was going to do a whole spiel about self belief coming from actual knowledge or potentially empirical evidence as well as paving the way to it, but on the proof thingy, I want you to prove that when Leonard got hurt in that sparring sesh, the offending punch caused reality to splinter and created a dimension parallel to this one where Leonard was really one of those lizard crocodillipig thingymibobs that David Icke says are controlling the world behind the scenes. And that the 11th doctor sealed the void between worlds when he ****ed all the Daleks off into it because they were covered in magnetic void stuff from all that time travel. You've got to admit, it makes for better conversation than being a pedantic bastard.
I don't really get what you get "pedantic" from. An athlete that's been out for five years are largely in the dark about what his body will give him. It must be uncomparable to an active athlete. It's not a small difference, it's a very big one.

For example Ali was completely taken aback by how fast he tired against Quarry in his comeback. And that was Quarry, not Hagler. No amount of sparring can compare you for how it is to be in the ring with someone like Hagler when you'd had only one fight (with a much lesser opponent) in over five years.

Leonard didn't have any magic initution. What he did have was a fantastic ability to compensate his lack of knowledge with improvisation.
Bokaj is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 05:11 PM   #40
MagnaNasakki
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,829
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
I don't really get what you get "pedantic" from. An athlete that's been out for five years are largely in the dark about what his body will give him. It must be uncomparable to an active athlete. It's not a small difference, it's a very big one.

For example Ali was completely taken aback by how fast he tired against Quarry in his comeback. And that was Quarry, not Hagler. No amount of sparring can compare you for how it is to be in the ring with someone like Hagler when you'd had only one fight (with a much lesser opponent) in over five years.

Leonard didn't have any magic initution. What he did have was a fantastic ability to compensate his lack of knowledge with improvisation.
I'm gonna back this.

Layoffs eff with you in so many ways. I came back from one and had trouble turning my punches over! Slapped the shit out my opponent. One of my only decision wins, dunno that I hit him with an actual punch all night. I thought training for the bout went well, but when I got in there, my timing was shit, I was overeager, my balance was horrible, and I was so dull I could get knuckles on the guy, and he wasn't anything special.
MagnaNasakki is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 05:21 PM   #41
PityTheFool
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Poorer place without Johnny Tapia
Posts: 9,602
vCash: 75
Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands of Iron View Post
What?

What have I been saying all along mate?
Sweetest of all.

I'm not going to try and top some of the superb posts here,but given the significance of this bout,rarely will you see such an anticipated match up where one fighter has the odds stacked against him as much as Ray did here.
If anyone wasn't around,it's hard to articulate just how fearsome Hagler was perceived as at the time.
This would be like Calzaghe or even Pavlik (if it was his first fight back)coming back and beating Ward.I'm not for a second comparing them ability wise but Hagler was dominant the same way Ward is now and it would be very hard to make a case for Calzaghe winning.The similarity comes in Ward being out on his own the way Marvin was having seen everyone off.
There was not much of a case for Ray winning,and even as a young fan I feared the worst.
PityTheFool is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 05:21 PM   #42
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,177
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
I'm gonna back this.

Layoffs eff with you in so many ways. I came back from one and had trouble turning my punches over! Slapped the shit out my opponent. One of my only decision wins, dunno that I hit him with an actual punch all night. I thought training for the bout went well, but when I got in there, my timing was shit, I was overeager, my balance was horrible, and I was so dull I could get knuckles on the guy, and he wasn't anything special.
Yep.

But I have to say the stars aligned for Leonard in this fight. He was as good as he possibly could be. His timing and reflexes looked sharper to me than they did in any other fight afterwards.

But to move up after an incativity like that to face a monster like Hagler... Completely unheard of.
Bokaj is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 05:43 PM   #43
Hands of Iron
#MSE
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 7,356
vCash: 75
Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PityTheFool View Post

What have I been saying all along mate?
Sweetest of all.

I'm not going to try and top some of the superb posts here,but given the significance of this bout,rarely will you see such an anticipated match up where one fighter has the odds stacked against him as much as Ray did here.
If anyone wasn't around,it's hard to articulate just how fearsome Hagler was perceived as at the time.
This would be like Calzaghe or even Pavlik (if it was his first fight back)coming back and beating Ward.I'm not for a second comparing them ability wise but Hagler was dominant the same way Ward is now and it would be very hard to make a case for Calzaghe winning.The similarity comes in Ward being out on his own the way Marvin was having seen everyone off.
There was not much of a case for Ray winning,and even as a young fan I feared the worst.
This is a topic that I've argued so much about that I'm at the point where I'm not giving cases against it the time of day, as evidenced by my first post in the thread. That's what it is. It's astonishing the lengths of which people go to diminish that win, and really -- ALL of Leonard's wins. He was little more than a mediocre fighter according to the logic of some here. That's essentially what they're saying.
Hands of Iron is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 05:50 PM   #44
MAG1965
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Dallas,Texas.
Posts: 17,399
vCash: 1010
Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
Yep.

But I have to say the stars aligned for Leonard in this fight. He was as good as he possibly could be. His timing and reflexes looked sharper to me than they did in any other fight afterwards.

But to move up after an incativity like that to face a monster like Hagler... Completely unheard of.
I agree totally. The stars aligned in every way possible. You got it exactly right. Ray should not have won that night. Hagler underrated Ray as we all did. Hagler's inactivity, ring wear, concessions in the ring all contributed. And the fact that Ray's style and commentary for HBO allowed him to see first hand how to box Hagler, and how not to (Hearns). I thought Hagler was going to win by 5th round knockout, and I remember seeing Ray arrive at Caesars like the fighters do a few days before the fight, and thinking Ray is going to be knocked out, but this is still exciting.
MAG1965 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 07:20 PM   #45
duranimal
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South of England
Posts: 4,264
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Hagler vs Leonard - Who had the advantage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin_Ribs View Post
I sort of agree with the consensus, but I think that duranimal has a point that people don't give quite enough credence to, re: Hagler's mentality.

Whatever the disadvantages of his layoff, considerable though they might have been, Ray definitely had the mental measure of Marvin and a much clearer understanding of the lay of the land, so to speak. And it mattered. Doesn't take away too much from the excellence of what Leonard achieved, of course it doesn't, but it lends perspective to the situation.

Leonard knew 110% about himself and Hagler physically and mentally, where they were at the time and that he himself still had more than enough about him to not be on the end of a beating, regardless of the outcome. Which meant he had nothing to lose and everything to gain whereas Hagler, financial reward aside, had everything to lose and nothing to gain.

The most likely outcome is that Ray loses but isn't completely outclassed or humiliated (which isn't a million miles away from what actually happened). So what? He walks away having failed bravely with his reputation in tact, maybe even slightly enhanced, and his wallet a lot bigger. And Hagler will have only beaten an inactive, faded welterweight in a less than impressive manner as he did Duran. His legacy is none the better for it similar to how Monzon's was for hammering Napoles despite Monzon looking much more impressive in doing so.

Hugh McIlvanney said that for Hagler, nothing less than a brutal, emphatic ko win was going to be good enough in the eyes of the public and - more importantly - the judges, despite Hagler being very much on the slide. That anything less would only detract and never gain real acceptance. And he was right imo. Ray realised this where Marvin didn't, and the latter had lost before he even started.

Leonard was the superstar with all the bargaining power and he was very adept at spinning perception and swaying people to his side both in the ring and out of it (he'd make a good politician I think, and that isn't really a good thing). He played Hagler for an absolute mug and Marvin knows it, which I think is more the real reason he's still so bitter and angry about it all in spite of Leonard getting the nod and riding off into the sunset laughing his bollocks off. He's probably far more pissed off with himself than with Leonard. Those first few rounds in the orthodox stance are probably seared on the inside of his eyelids at night.

As for the fight itself, I thought Marv edged it close but clear last time I watched it, which was about 7 years ago and neither man looked particularly good iirc. My memory's appalling though. Credit to Ray in the second half of the fight; he gutted and flurried it out like it was nobody's business.

Nothing wrong per se with how he made sure the deck was stacked a bit more evenly from a certain point of view as long you acknowledge, as Leonard himself does, that he knew it and did it. He had means at his disposal and he used them, Machiavellian though they were, and Hagler fell for it before he could see what was going on.

Top achievement from a great fighter. He's still a cunt though and Hagler isn't exactly my cup of char either.
Nice read
duranimal is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013