Foreman struggling with Peralta leaves me unsatisfied

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose

Joe Louis telling you you are a very talented fighter and destined for big things suggests to me he must've had something? And to the contrary, if you are taking people to draws or at least paper thin decisions then that suggests to me that you're a hairs breadth from teaching that kinda level?? Lowry may never have been a ranked contender but he was highly respected by everyone he fought with and belonged in there - the fact that Foreman was generally nit-picked for not having got Peralta out of there early suggests that most people thought based on his career to that time that he didn't belong in the ring at all with George and would just be smashed - so that suggests to me that Lowry was the more well thought of - he certainly was viewed as just another victim by anyone??

Lowry fought a large amount of very talented fighters, Peralta came from the lower division which gave him more finesse and speed and savvy than Foreman and Lyle, Ali too had his share of trouble with the lighter,smaller guys like Jones and Cooper and Frazier...Lowry fought the more skilled guys from 170-200 which was loaded with talent and was only stopped a small fraction of times. In fairness in the 2nd Foreman fight, Peralta was on the ropes but blocking and IMO stopped prematurely, Peralta was losing but did not appear to be hurt, the ref stopped it and Gregorio was never down...I watched in a theater closed circuit and if I recall it was a black & white telecast and pretty poor in those days but Foreman did not impress me, in fact if Peralta had some power it may have been a win for Gregorio

[NoNeck]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Peralta's record just doesn't impress me. Was he more than his record had to offer? A prime Foreman struggling that much to put away Peralta along with his subsequent loss to jimmy young in 77, leads me to believe he would have never been able to handle a highly skilled, iron chinned boxer like Larry Holmes.

I agree.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose

Joe Louis telling you you are a very talented fighter and destined for big things suggests to me he must've had something? And to the contrary, if you are taking people to draws or at least paper thin decisions then that suggests to me that you're a hairs breadth from teaching that kinda level?? Lowry may never have been a ranked contender but he was highly respected by everyone he fought with and belonged in there - the fact that Foreman was generally nit-picked for not having got Peralta out of there early suggests that most people thought based on his career to that time that he didn't belong in the ring at all with George and would just be smashed - so that suggests to me that Lowry was the more well thought of - he certainly was viewed as just another victim by anyone??

How many rated fighters did Lowry beat?

Jore Louis never knocked a fighter, and his record for picking winners was almost as bad as Jim Corbett's

The argument that because he lost close decisions means that you are"a hairs breath from reaching contender level", is only valid if you are losing these close decisions to contenders , but Lowry was not , he was losing them to other journeyman like himself ,so it does not hold water.
Lowry lost split decs to the following.
Chubby Wright 23-26-3
George Parmenter 13-8-3
Mike Jacobs 10-4-3
Mike Jacobs 11-4-3
Abel Gonsalves 8-10-1
Saint Paul 35-20-2
None were ever anything but journeyman.
He also won split decs over the following.
Jack Porter 14-12-3
Pat Mangini 16-17-2
Both journeyman.

[Senor Pepe']

February 1970

The 34 1/2 year-old Argentinian was no 'cake walk'.

Gregorio 'Goyo' Peralta was 'considered' too crafty by many of
the American Heavyweight fight managers.

The 6' 0" 185 lb (normal weight) was regarded as the 'best'
counter-punching small heavyweight out there.

With a record of 77-5-8 (39 KO's), and a strong {4 1/2 year}
'unbeaten' streak of 29-0-3 (16 KO's) since Goyo's close 12-round Decision
loss to Oscar Bonavena in September 1965.

Muhammad Ali said 'NO TO GOYO' as his comeback foe in 1970.

[RockysSplitNose]

Originally Posted by mcvey

How many rated fighters did Lowry beat?

Jore Louis never knocked a fighter, and his record for picking winners was almost as bad as Jim Corbett's

The argument that because he lost close decisions means that you are"a hairs breath from reaching contender level", is only valid if you are losing these close decisions to contenders , but Lowry was not , he was losing them to other journeyman like himself ,so it does not hold water.
Lowry lost split decs to the following.
Chubby Wright 23-26-3
George Parmenter 13-8-3
Mike Jacobs 10-4-3
Mike Jacobs 11-4-3
Abel Gonsalves 8-10-1
Saint Paul 35-20-2
None were ever anything but journeyman.
He also won split decs over the following.
Jack Porter 14-12-3
Pat Mangini 16-17-2
Both journeyman.

All very valid but it comes across as very dismissive to just lump him into the journeyman bracket - you say my argument is only valid if he's losing close to other 'contenders' but everything I've read seems to suggest he ran Marciano VERY close - Lowry even went so far as to say himself
"I'll admit he win the second one, but nobody will ever convince me he won the first one. In many ways I feel cheated out of my place in history. But I guess I have to take some of the blame too. I took both fights on short notice and took him lightly. I didn't take either fight as seriously as I should have. It's easy to talk now 40 years later but beleive me if I had any idea Rocky was going to be champion I would've prepared much better and quite possibly beat him both times."
Granted I haven't seen the bouts but there you go just think a lot of very very good fighters get relegated to the journey bracket to easily that's all?

[OvidsExile]

Originally Posted by rusak

Yeah, but he fought a lot of cruiserweight bums and avoided good boxers like the plague.

Holmes, Foreman, and Tyson all got fat on a steady diet of bums and avoided some major competition. Maybe this was do to their temperament or maybe it was because they all were managed by Don King.

[Joe E]

The young, Green, Foreman seemed to become frustrated with the experienced, tough Peralta. Leading to amateurish lunges and swings at times. Not surprising with a young fighter.

[OvidsExile]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Larry Holmes had the pertinent array of skills and essential attributes to defeat George Foreman. But I'd prefer to look at Foreman's bout with Muhammad Ali to confirm this and not his outings with Peralta or Young. It still would have taken a great boxer of exceptional ability and stamina to beat George Foreman, and the said performances were not the best showcase of George's qualities. One of those lackluster displays was a lack of experience issue, while the other had to do with bad preparation poor mental resolve, and managerial issues in his corner ( not to mention, Jimmy Young was actually a hell of a good fighter.)

I just watched the Foreman-Young fight and I had a few thoughts. One, the ref was completely against Foreman and hamstrung him. He should have warned Young for excessive holding but instead he warns Foreman about pushing Young off of him so he could punch. That doesn't excuse Foreman for not having a plan B or infighting skills but it did strike me as unfair. Also, it looked like Gil Clancy was yelling at Foreman the whole of the last break and wouldn't let him sit down. Foreman was dog weary and dehydrated, so of course he was staggering and falling in the final round. Clancy should have let him rest. I also read that the reason Foreman did so badly in that fight was because Clancy was tinkering with his style, and didn't want him to go all out and exhaust himself like he did in Zaire against Ali. If he'd used his earlier overwhelming force style he might have knocked Young out early, rematched an even older Ali, beat him and reigned as champ for a while.

Part of Foreman's problem was his trainers. Ali had Angelo Dundee in his corner for the Rumble in the Jungle. Foreman had Dick Sadler. If he'd had Eddie Futch instead, maybe Holmes never gets a reign.

[Senor Pepe']

Monday Night - February 16, 1970

Main Event - Joe Frazier vs Jimmy Ellis (World Heavyweight Championship)

George Foreman,

The 'unranked' - 21 year-old Texas Heavyweight, with a record of 15-0-0 (14 KO's),
and with only 48-Rounds of 'ring experience'.

Why did they take the fight with the 'tricky' 34 year-old Argentinian
veteran and #9 Heavyweight - Gregorio Perlata.

The rumor was, that if Jimmy Ellis had defeated Joe Frazier, he would
fight George Foreman in June 1970 (in Houston, Texas) - if George could
defeat Gregorio Peralta.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose

All very valid but it comes across as very dismissive to just lump him into the journeyman bracket - you say my argument is only valid if he's losing close to other 'contenders' but everything I've read seems to suggest he ran Marciano VERY close - Lowry even went so far as to say himself
"I'll admit he win the second one, but nobody will ever convince me he won the first one. In many ways I feel cheated out of my place in history. But I guess I have to take some of the blame too. I took both fights on short notice and took him lightly. I didn't take either fight as seriously as I should have. It's easy to talk now 40 years later but beleive me if I had any idea Rocky was going to be champion I would've prepared much better and quite possibly beat him both times."
Granted I haven't seen the bouts but there you go just think a lot of very very good fighters get relegated to the journey bracket to easily that's all?

You produce some Lowry quotes that appeared in the Ring, that is not a case.
From July 1948, until February 1950 Lowry had 25 fights, he won 4 of them. From Feb 1950 until the end of his career ,[July 1955,]Lowry had a further 22 fights , he won 7 of them.The first Marciano fight was a U Dec for Marciano The second was the same, in his next fight Lowry fought Lastarza over 10rds ,and lost all of them on all cards. A month later he fought a declining Jimmy Bivins, and won 2 of the 10 rds on 2 cards, and none on the other.
Whatever way you slice it , that is the resume of a journeyman .

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis;14289299[U

]Lowry fought a large amount of very[/u] talented fighters, Peralta came from the lower division which gave him more finesse and speed and savvy than Foreman and Lyle, Ali too had his share of trouble with the lighter,smaller guys like Jones and Cooper and Frazier...Lowry fought the more skilled guys from 170-200 which was loaded with talent and was only stopped a small fraction of times. In fairness in the 2nd Foreman fight, Peralta was on the ropes but blocking and IMO stopped prematurely, Peralta was losing but did not appear to be hurt, the ref stopped it and Gregorio was never down...I watched in a theater closed circuit and if I recall it was a black & white telecast and pretty poor in those days but Foreman did not impress me, in fact if Peralta had some power it may have been a win for Gregorio

How many of them did he beat?

[red cobra]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

Lowry fought a large amount of very talented fighters, Peralta came from the lower division which gave him more finesse and speed and savvy than Foreman and Lyle, Ali too had his share of trouble with the lighter,smaller guys like Jones and Cooper and Frazier...Lowry fought the more skilled guys from 170-200 which was loaded with talent and was only stopped a small fraction of times. In fairness in the 2nd Foreman fight, Peralta was on the ropes but blocking and IMO stopped prematurely, Peralta was losing but did not appear to be hurt, the ref stopped it and Gregorio was never down...I watched in a theater closed circuit and if I recall it was a black & white telecast and pretty poor in those days but Foreman did not impress me, in fact if Peralta had some power it may have been a win for Gregorio

I saw it closed circuit also...and it was amazing. Everybody was cheering old Peralta on..he was only hampered, as you mention, by his lack of power. He might have changed the course of the heavyweight division. What a good fight he made.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by mcvey

How many of them did he beat?

well we know he was known for staying the distance with Marciano, Jimmy Bivins and Archie Moore but he did have some decent wins He beat Billy Fox and drew, He slit 3 with a prime Bernie Reynolds W,L & D. and Reynalds beat Nathan Mann, Eddie Blunt and Cesar Brion about that time. He drew with the tough Eddie Blunt, Lee Oma and Lee Savold and he Beat 2x a UD and a KO over 6"3 Willie James who had KO'd Ingemar Johansons Olympic conqueror Undefeated Big Ed Sanders and James also beat Burt Whitehurst and Rex Layne and Willie Wilson and Tiger Ted KO'd the 6"3 James in 7

Ted claimed a lot of the decisions he lost were bogus and we know how that goes but I believe a lot of the fights could have been close because they brought him into lose...Peralta on the other hand was a big name in Argentina, and a big star and most of his fights were fought there and he was a star and a favorite in Argentina

[lora]

There can be little doubt that Mayweather would have defeated the Foreman of the Peralta fight.Probably any Foreman.

[Senor Pepe']

Gregorio 'Goyo' Peralta

"No Luck For Argentinian, As WBA Championship Bout Is Called Off"

Friday Night, December 19, 1969 (Buenos Aires, Argentina)

The Promoters called of the WBA Championship Bout between Champion -
Jimmy Ellis of America, and home-country Challenger - Gregorio Peralta.

The bout, which was scheduled for Saturday Night (December 20th) was
called off, due to poor ticket sales.

The 34 year-old Peralta, with a record of 77-5-8 (39 KO's) last fought
on August 8th, when fought to a 10-Round Draw with Oscar Bonavena.