The Sparring Partners - 'Talk About Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston II'

[BillB]

Originally Posted by groove

if you believe both fights were fixed then why did sonny get in great shape for the rematch?

He didn't.

He got in shape for the Boston fight which was called off.

[groove]

so now you are saying that the boston fight wasn't fixed and that's why sonny got in great shape? The shock horror - how convenient LOL.

[BillB]

Originally Posted by groove

so now you are saying that the boston fight wasn't fixed and that's why sonny got in great shape? The shock horror - how convenient LOL.

You made a statement which wasn't true and I corrected it.

Liston didn't get in shape for the Lewiston fight. I don't know what would have happened in the Boston fight, because it didn't happen.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by HOUDINI

Not one word of truth here. COmelet fabrication. Both the first and second fight were officially investigated and no evidence of a fix was found. Period.

Are you claiming that Mr. Pepe is fabricating these quotes?

[Senor Pepe']

Originally Posted by groove

if you believe both fights were fixed then why did sonny get in great shape for the rematch?

Sonny got into the 'best' physical and mental shape since 1962 for the
November 16, 1964 rematch, and was 'mentally focused'.

Sonny, got into very good shape 'physical shape' for the May 25, 1965
rematch. But, circumstances about 'financial decisions' changed course
leading up to the bout.

[johnmaff36]

Groove asks a very valid question here. If , and by all accounts he was, Liston got in good shape for the rematch (the one that got cancelled), then why throw the rematch that DID take place?

For the sake of argument here, lets say Pepe is correct. This asks many questions like;

why wasnt the 'fix' wasnt on in the original rematch?
what happened in the time between the original rematch and the actual rematch for a 'fix' to be considered?

Ive no idea of the odds for the original rematch but id imagine there wasnt a great deal of difference between the 2 fights (rematches).

But what i do know about is betting patterns and if ANY kind of big money went on Liston, or a series of smaller bets put down all over the place, the bookies smell a rat right away. For starters they would have informed the powers-that-be of their suspicions. The odds would have tumbled dramatically (im not aware that they did), or they would have just outright suspended betting. To the best of my knowledge non of the 3 occurred.


Personally speaking i think its a case of Occums Raser and no amount of innuendo or speculation will make me change my mind. As SP has said (in not so many words), even the sparring partners knew Liston was on the slide. Is it not just feasible he was beaten fair and square?

[Senor Pepe']

John Maff 36,

A smart guy like you should know, that many things can change in nearly 7-months
(November 1964 to May 1965).

A) Money
B) The growth spurt of Las Vegas
C) The ever ending law-suits involving Sonny Liston
D) LSG's need to keep Cassius Clay out of the U.S. Army

The 'Betting-Odds' of the bout was not really an issue, the
money boys (I-C-P) wanted Sonny out of the way in May 1965.

November 1964, Sonny opened up as a 9-5 Favorite, for the originally
scheduled rematch.

By fight night on May 25, 1965 - Sonny was a 13-10 Betting-Favorite.

[Senor Pepe']

Friday - May 14, 1965

Everett Copeland, 23 year-old - 6' 1" 205 lb. - Brooklyn Heavyweight, with a record
of 6-7-3 (1 KO's).

'Sonny was busting me up bad. He caved in my ribs, and now I'm no good to him. So
I'm packing my bags, and leaving Maine, and heading back to Brooklyn. I've never been
hit so hard. I made $250 for 1-week. It was the hardest paycheck I've ever earned.'

May 25, 1965 (After watching the bout in a Theatre in New York)

'No way was that a real fight. That was not the Sonny Liston I saw two-weeks ago.
Somebody got paid-off. There were an awful lot of old guys hanging around Sonny
up at the Poland Spring House. Somebody told him what to do.'

[Colonel Sanders]

Originally Posted by SJS19

Again Pepe, how is this worth a thread?

[johnmaff36]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

John Maff 36,

A smart guy like you should know, that many things can change in nearly 7-months
(November 1964 to May 1965).

A) Money
B) The growth spurt of Las Vegas
C) The ever ending law-suits involving Sonny Liston
D) LSG's need to keep Cassius Clay out of the U.S. Army

The 'Betting-Odds' of the bout was not really an issue, the
money boys (I-C-P) wanted Sonny out of the way in May 1965.

November 1964, Sonny opened up as a 9-5 Favorite, for the originally
scheduled rematch.

By fight night on May 25, 1965 - Sonny was a 13-10 Betting-Favorite.

so he was odds-on for both fights, even smaller in price for the 2nd 'rematch'.

What happened to further decrease the odds (apart from money going onto sonny)?

Ali would have been an even bigger price, so if the big boys were involved in making money with Liston outta the way, surely it would have benefitted them more to put money on Ali AS WELL , seeing as the 'fix' was in and they 'knew' Liston was gonna lose. Means they collect both ends doesnt it?

Just doesnt make sense to me

[BillB]

Originally Posted by johnmaff36

so he was odds-on for both fights, even smaller in price for the 2nd 'rematch'.

What happened to further decrease the odds (apart from money going onto sonny)?

Ali would have been an even bigger price, so if the big boys were involved in making money with Liston outta the way, surely it would have benefitted them more to put money on Ali AS WELL , seeing as the 'fix' was in and they 'knew' Liston was gonna lose. Means they collect both ends doesnt it?

Just doesnt make sense to me

The odds decreased because of money going into Ali.

You must be from the HOUDINI school of logic. LOL

[HOUDINI]

Never seen so many lost posters. Both fights were officially investigated and no evidence of a fix was found.

The fight was not wanted anywhere because of history...does anyone know what history is? During the 6 or so months prior to the fight.... Alis apartment was fire bombed, Malcom X was assassinated and Alis life was threatened due to his allegiances in the black community. The thought was the fight was potentially too dangerous for everyone involved mostly the spectators at ringside. Of course there was speculation of all sorts of scenarios but the main thought was what if what happened to Malcom x were to happen to Ali that night. Potentially many people could have been injured and killed.

[Senor Pepe']

HOUDINI,

There was 'security up the ass' in Lewiston, Maine.

No Black Nationalists were getting to anybody.

For God's Sake, 600 Journalists were up there.

Both boxers had 'Round-the-Clock' Security, by State Troopers
and the Feds, as well as private security detail.

[IMG]********newspaperarchive.com/berkshire-eagle/1965-05-24/95068667-thumbnail.jpg[/IMG]

[HOUDINI]

WHY do you think there was that much security? It was because of the incidents that occurred within the 6 months or so prior to the fight. The fight was not rejected because of the potential of a fix but because of the potential of a incident that could injure or kill many people.

[young griffo]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

Friday - May 14, 1965

Everett Copeland, 23 year-old - 6' 1" 205 lb. - Brooklyn Heavyweight, with a record
of 6-7-3 (1 KO's).

'Sonny was busting me up bad. He caved in my ribs, and now I'm no good to him. So
I'm packing my bags, and leaving Maine, and heading back to Brooklyn. I've never been
hit so hard. I made $250 for 1-week. It was the hardest paycheck I've ever earned.'

May 25, 1965 (After watching the bout in a Theatre in New York)

'No way was that a real fight. That was not the Sonny Liston I saw two-weeks ago.
Somebody got paid-off. There were an awful lot of old guys hanging around Sonny
up at the Poland Spring House. Somebody told him what to do.'

There's something very fishy about Liston busting up a fighter of the quality of Everett Copeland, 6-7-3 (1 KO) in sparring yet not being able to do the same against the World Heavyweight Champion Muhammad Ali, 20-0-0 (16 KO's).

Yep based on this it must've been a fix .