Let's discuss Ring Generalship

[Nightcrawler]

Originally Posted by lora

I always liked Gianfranco Rosi's ring generalship.He was sort of a 154 version of old 40-ish Hopkins.Not that they looked entirely similar, but the approach and general fighting mentality was the same.

he beat a lot of other contenders who usually had the physical edge through sheer guile and constant little fouls.Always controlling the distance and tempo with cautious boxing "just enough" to win rounds and mauling just enough to keep the other fighter from getting into a settled rhythm.

Of course it came undone when he faced real A level talent(even a worn Curry still had enough of it) but he was a crafty more than the sum of the parts fighter in an era when most of his opponents were physical talents\ fairly talented specialists that didn't seem to be too smart or versatile in the ring.

thanks lora! yet another fighter i need to look a bit more into more. any particular fight you'd recommend?

[McGrain]

Generalship isn't about imposing your will, not for me anyway. It's about marshalling your physical and technical capabilities to the greatest possible advantage (whatever they may be). Lopez did not excel in this to the .1% IMO.

[LittleRed]

Lopez throws punches as fluidly as anybody this side of Jose Napoles but I think mechanically he's a Harold Johnson jr. Not as good on the inside, less straight punch wise, not as married to the jab but does everything right.

[LittleRed]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Generalship isn't about imposing your will, not for me anyway. It's about marshalling your physical and technical capabilities to the greatest possible advantage (whatever they may be). Lopez did not excel in this to the .1% IMO.

Can you be a great fighter with little generalship assuming an abundance of other talents? on the other hand, by this definition, is current Klitschko the best heavyweight ring general?

[Nightcrawler]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Generalship isn't about imposing your will, not for me anyway. It's about marshalling your physical and technical capabilities to the greatest possible advantage (whatever they may be). Lopez did not excel in this to the .1% IMO.

i agree with this but i also feel it involves neutralzing your opponents physical and technical capabilities. great fighters can use styles that maximize their gifts to the maximum (i.e. roy jones) but that for me doesn't necessary make a great general unless they force their opponents into a fight wherein there own skills are rendered irrelevant.

hopkins against tito is an example. hopkins style for perfect for him and perfect for the type of fight he wanted to fight against tito...one where tito's punching power was neutralized and the pace was slowed down to where hopkins was at his most effective

leonard dominated by making the most of his gifts but in the first fight, could not force duran to fight his type of battle, could not control the distance or pace and allowed duran to maximize his OWN strengths. that was duran being the general against the athletically superior leonard

if any of that makes sense i have been drinking...

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by LittleRed

Can you be a great fighter with little generalship assuming an abundance of other talents? on the other hand, by this definition, is current Klitschko the best heavyweight ring general?

Sure you can.

And yes he is - best general in boxing right now, no question.

[Nightcrawler]

Originally Posted by LittleRed

Lopez throws punches as fluidly as anybody this side of Jose Napoles but I think mechanically he's a Harold Johnson jr. Not as good on the inside, less straight punch wise, not as married to the jab but does everything right.

lopez gets shit on a lot for his inside fighting but i've always thought that was a sign of his ability to control the distance.

i see what mcgrain is saying though: that when taken out of his comfort zone he was nowhere near as effective

[salsanchezfan]

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler

thanks lora! yet another fighter i need to look a bit more into more. any particular fight you'd recommend?

Personally, I'd recommend his bouts with Darrin Van Horn and Duane Thomas.

The guy personified what it means to "win ugly." The most aesthetically displeasing style I've ever seen in a fighter, absolutely bar none.

[LittleRed]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Sure you can.

And yes he is - best general in boxing right now, no question.

Can you think of a guy who was clearly great and wasn't a great general. Riddick Bowe? For Klitschko I meant more all time speaking that his style is all about maximizing his talents.

And as for Lopez, nightcrawler, I think his comfort zone was in between the ropes.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by LittleRed

Can you think of a guy who was clearly great and wasn't a great general.

Manny Pacquiao.

[Bokaj]

Lots of good mentions, but surprised no one has mentioned Robinson yet. The last one against LaMotta was a masterpiece in this department. Maxim less so, of course.

Herol Graham deserves a shout as a borrdeline great ring general, I think. Yes he was caught out stupidly by Jackson, but that was more down to his technical flaws.

Also, Frazier is a no go for me. Yes, great at taking fighters out of their comfort zone, but seeing him repeatdely march straight into Foreman's cannons in their first fight excludes him from this discussion imo.

[LittleRed]

Pac was right in front of me and I missed it. Probably have to ritualistically disfigure myself for that one. And I think Robinson was at least as good against Maxim as Conn was against Louis.

[frankenfrank]

Originally Posted by LittleRed

Well I think Angotts size might have something to do with that...

Also great call on Pedroza. Guy I totally wouldn't of (you see it BE) but a great choice. Copious amounts of fouls doesn't mean he didn't know how to fight.

It very strongly suggests (mildly put) that he did not know how 2 fight without it

[LittleRed]

That's truffles Frank pure truffles! Look at how well he did at 118. Sanchez would've been in a world of hurt.

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by LittleRed

Pac was right in front of me and I missed it. Probably have to ritualistically disfigure myself for that one. And I think Robinson was at least as good against Maxim as Conn was against Louis.

You mean in that both made miscalculations that cost them the fight?