Was Wills better than McVea, Jeannette or Langford?

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Lord Tywin

I dont know enough about him to say he had it coming, but all those people who were absolutely crushed to see a white guy lose to a black guy sure did. Oh wait, I was talking about Mitt Romney supporters. Back to boxing.

Well I'm English, but if I lived in the US I would vote Democrat.

[Boilermaker]

okay, i just watched it here.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esnq-orAvo8[/ame]

It is at about 9.50.

Johnson drops jeff to the canvas for the first time ever, with a left to the back of the head. Johnson moves to hit jeff who is on his knees rising and jeff defensively squats and waits as the referee tries unsuccessfully to move johnson back to a neutral corner (presumably). Jeffries raises but is pushed though the ropes by a rushing Johnson before he has time to take his fighting stance. Jeffries is tripped by the bottom rope, but amazingly, doesnt seem to actually fall out of the ring or hit his head, just sits there in a sit up type position,resting on the side of the apron.

It is unclear what happens next. as Jeff waits, one of his corner men lifts him back in the ring and steps back in the ring with Jeffries. I was going to wite a joke of a post suggesting the corner man lifted him in in self preservation, but it seems to me quite clear that Jeffries corner was calling the fight off at this point (something never mentioned before).

Jeffries is helped to his feet and you can see that the corner man is half in the ring when johnson starts attacking jeffries again, before he has got to his feet. The cornerman seems to stay their while jeffries is chased and again goes down. Jeffries again rises, but the fight is stopped.

It seems to me that Jeffries corner wanted the fight stopped when they helped him back in the ring. And johnson probably not realising was a little over excited and it took a while for the battle to be stopped. Especially with Rickard, who was an inexperienced referee.

Incidentally, looking at the film when everyone took to the ring, it is very interesting, that Jeffries is still on his feet and walking around. His chin is first class, imo.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Boilermaker

okay, i just watched it here.
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

It is at about 9.50.

Johnson drops jeff to the canvas for the first time ever, with a left to the back of the head. Johnson moves to hit jeff who is on his knees rising and jeff defensively squats and waits as the referee tries unsuccessfully to move johnson back to a neutral corner (presumably). Jeffries raises but is pushed though the ropes by a rushing Johnson before he has time to take his fighting stance. Jeffries is tripped by the bottom rope, but amazingly, doesnt seem to actually fall out of the ring or hit his head, just sits there in a sit up type position,resting on the side of the apron.

It is unclear what happens next. as Jeff waits, one of his corner men lifts him back in the ring and steps back in the ring with Jeffries. I was going to wite a joke of a post suggesting the corner man lifted him in in self preservation, but it seems to me quite clear that Jeffries corner was calling the fight off at this point (something never mentioned before).

Jeffries is helped to his feet and you can see that the corner man is half in the ring when johnson starts attacking jeffries again, before he has got to his feet. The cornerman seems to stay their while jeffries is chased and again goes down. Jeffries again rises, but the fight is stopped.

It seems to me that Jeffries corner wanted the fight stopped when they helped him back in the ring. And johnson probably not realising was a little over excited and it took a while for the battle to be stopped. Especially with Rickard, who was an inexperienced referee.

Incidentally, looking at the film when everyone took to the ring, it is very interesting, that Jeffries is still on his feet and walking around. His chin is first class, imo.

I'm now convinced that Jeffries chin is top flight too. He was dazed the next day and disorientated to some degree, but the man was probably in some kind of post fight shock . Great chin, fortitude ,and courage.

[Boilermaker]

Originally Posted by mcvey

I'm now convinced that Jeffries chin is top flight too. He was dazed the next day and disorientated to some degree, but the man was probably in some kind of post fight shock . Great chin, fortitude ,and courage.

I think it is a shame that racism taunts this era. Most of what was said really was for the press' benefit. I think it near certain that Boxers were far less racist than journalists. In flicking through the above documentary, i found it interesting that Johnson's sparring partner was fireman Jim Flynn.

The same Jim Flynn who a short time latter would be considered racist scum who was such a bad sport that he headbutted and tried every trick in the book to win a world title for the white man. It is hard to believe that such a racist person would actually be working for a black man!

[Lord Tywin]

I got a different impression from the actions of the cornermen.

I felt that they were standing on the apron in hopes of assisting Jeffries if needed, such as throwing water on him, or whatever.

I didnt get the impression that they wanted to stop it, especially not after the one kicked Jeffries in the butt to prompt him back into the ring.

It seemed to me they wanted him to fight more than he wanted to.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by Boilermaker

I think it is a shame that racism taunts this era. Most of what was said really was for the press' benefit. I think it near certain that Boxers were far less racist than journalists. In flicking through the above documentary, i found it interesting that Johnson's sparring partner was fireman Jim Flynn.

The same Jim Flynn who a short time latter would be considered racist scum who was such a bad sport that he headbutted and tried every trick in the book to win a world title for the white man. It is hard to believe that such a racist person would actually be working for a black man!

Flynn does seem to have held strongly racist views, but that doesn’t mean that he should be compared to somebody who holds those views today.

There were people in this era, who expressed views that we would consider racist today, who did not fit the mental profile of a modern racist.

Today there are no excuses left. If you hold these views, you hold them against the majority, and that makes you a very small person.

[Boilermaker]

Originally Posted by janitor

Flynn does seem to have held strongly racist views, but that doesn’t mean that he should be compared to somebody who holds those views today.

There were people in this era, who expressed views that we would consider racist today, who did not fit the mental profile of a modern racist.

Today there are no excuses left. If you hold these views, you hold them against the majority, and that makes you a very small person.

HE is reported in the paper. But if you truly hold those racist views, would you really work for a coloured fighter?

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Boilermaker

I think it is a shame that racism taunts this era. Most of what was said really was for the press' benefit. I think it near certain that Boxers were far less racist than journalists. In flicking through the above documentary, i found it interesting that Johnson's sparring partner was fireman Jim Flynn.

The same Jim Flynn who a short time latter would be considered racist scum who was such a bad sport that he headbutted and tried every trick in the book to win a world title for the white man. It is hard to believe that such a racist person would actually be working for a black man!

No one made more racist quotes than Tommy Burns , yet he was a big admirer of Sam Langford.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by janitor

Flynn does seem to have held strongly racist views, but that doesn’t mean that he should be compared to somebody who holds those views today.

There were people in this era, who expressed views that we would consider racist today, who did not fit the mental profile of a modern racist.

Today there are no excuses left. If you hold these views, you hold them against the majority, and that makes you a very small person.

Based on that logic you can excuse many of the war crimes committed by the Nazis in WW2. In Germany there was deep lying Anti-Semitism that pre-dated the Nazi party. But there were those who knew what was happening was wrong whether through their education or natural human dignity. The same as there were many whites in America who were pro-civil rights. Racism is a spectrum too, you can have someone with overtly racist who yet shows people of that race basic human dignity, while others will see it as an opportunity to be sadistic and essentially bully the weak

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Based on that logic you can excuse many of the war crimes committed by the Nazis in WW2.

matter of time, only.

[lufcrazy]

A racist is a racist no matter the era.

Holding someone in a negative light based purely on race is so small minded regardless of the views held by peers.

That's tantamount to saying being a paedo is alright as long as you're in a paedo ring.

Denying someone the richest prize in sports based on skin colour is disgraceful and its the biggest stain on boxings history. This needs not defending nor understanding.

Can we blame Dempsey for not giving a shot to wills? Perhaps so. He could have taken the fight out of America for a reduced purse to make a noble gesture and change the face of boxing.

Sure Johnson was the first black champ but he drew the live himself. Jack proving superiority over all his division regardless of race would have been a huge and noble statement. Hiding behind management and saying he'll never fight wills is much less noble by any definition.

People new to the sport can be blinded by the glitz and glamour surrounding his legend. Those who look into the history should appreciate the truth is a bit darker and less impressive.

[Lord Tywin]

I think its folly to look at these men and their beliefs or actions outside of the context of their times.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by Lord Tywin

I think its folly to look at these men and their beliefs or actions outside of the context of their times.

I think it's folly to not use the benefit of hindsight when available.

Racism is wrong no matter how many were guilty of it.

Can you imagine today mayweather saying "I would never fight an Asian, so Pac is out and will never get a shot".

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

A racist is a racist no matter the era.

Holding someone in a negative light based purely on race is so small minded regardless of the views held by peers.

That's tantamount to saying being a paedo is alright as long as you're in a paedo ring.

This euphemism only works if all the person knows is the "paedo ring".

That is, people raised as racists in a racist society will tend to remain racist. A person is far, far more likely to be racist if literally everyone he knows is a racist.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by McGrain

This euphemism only works if all the person knows is the "paedo ring".

That is, people raised as racists in a racist society will tend to remain racist. A person is far, far more likely to be racist if literally everyone he knows is a racist.

Yes of course. But does a culture of crime make the crime any more reasonable? I say hell no.

go back further when all people knew was blacks as slaves, it doesn't make the slave trade right.

Child soldiers in Africa who only know drugs, alcohol and murder. None of that is right neither.

Saying "yes but everyone was racist as well" is not an adequate defence in my opinion. People have an innate sense of right and wrong and denying a man a title because of skin colour was always known to be wrong, it was just that it was tolerated. Doesn't make it right and certainly not with hindsight on our side.