Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-09-2007, 01:10 PM   #16
red cobra
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Sea of Tranquility
Posts: 13,110
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Primo Carnera

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
What actual evidence is there for Carnera having all these fixed fights you talk about?

As far as I can see the alegations are based on inuendo, and half truths. The person who made the alegations had a grudge against Carnera and much of what he wrote is self contradictory.
So all the written history on Primo Carnera is false? The mob DIDN'T fix his fights and steer him to the title? He got there legitimately and just fell apart one night against Max Baer? I guess you're free to believe anything you want. Just revise history all you want to. There are already revisionist idiots out there who are saying that Joe Louis was NOT a great champion, and that Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano were over rated, rank amateurs and nonsense like that, so I guess it's time to rewrite the book on Primo Carnera too and make him a "good champion".
red cobra is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 07-09-2007, 01:29 PM   #17
red cobra
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Sea of Tranquility
Posts: 13,110
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Primo Carnera

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luigi1985
You´re an idiot who hates Carnera without any reasons. Stop it, it would really be better...
An idiot because I don't buy into revisionist history about Primo Carnera? I have nothing against Carnera. I have no reason to have anything against Primo Carnera. Is it because he was Italian that you'e so defensive about the guy and you want to tweak it so he's something that he wasn't? Were the great sportswriters like Paul Gallico and others who wrote about him just full of shit or something? It's like me building up Jerry Quarry, who was Irish, up into something far greater than he was because I happen to be Irish too. Where's your evidence to support saying that he was anything than what he was widely reported that he was? I happen to admire the fact that he gave it his all against the big hitters he faced who slaughtered him, and had the balls to keep trying until the end like he did against Louis. He had courage, and thats all he had left after the mob betrayed and then deserted him. He had courage and like I said, he had size and rudimentary boxing skills. That and the infuence of some very crooked men led him to the top, where he did, if you'll remenber from my first post, win his title legitimately with that right uppercut against Sharkey. The guy couldn't take a damned punch, get it? This was made painfully obvious when he fought Baer, Louis and Haynes, and by then, it was time for Primo to switch to pro wrestling. He seemed like a good hearted, likeable, somewhat childlike kind of man, so you're wrong, he was impossible to hate. Just dont rewrite boxing history for the sake of some whim of yours.
red cobra is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2007, 02:05 PM   #18
UpWithEvil
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 340
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Primo Carnera

Quote:
So all the written history on Primo Carnera is false?
I think calling the various innuendos and whispered rumors "history" is overstating the case.

For many years I, like yourself, openly believed the derogatory tales of Da Preem, a talentless lummox who couldn't fight a lick but was pushed to the top through a series of fixed fights arranged by his mobster handlers. Upon further investigation, however, I find myself increasingly unconvinced on that score; which fighters have admitted to taking a dive? What firsthand accounts exist of the flim-flammery?

When I was a lad doing a bit of boxing myself, a grizzled old-timer confided in my that when you go to see a major boxing show, you can assume that 25% of the fights are not on the level to some extent. I don't doubt that Da Preem benefitted from a few paid divers in his day, but do completely discredit his accomplishments and assume that all of his wins were shams is amazingly unfair.

And the final nail in the coffin of "Primo's fights were all fixed" is to watch the video for yourself. Far from being a talentless oaf, on-film Carnera looks like a credible and skilled contender. His jab was a solid weapon, and his footwork was nowhere near as ponderous as legend would tell you. Make the effort to view some of this footage yourself - vs. George Godfrey, vs. Ernie Schaff, vs. Sharkey (both fights), Kingfish Levinsky, Ray Impelletiere, or whatever else you can scrounge up. I think you'll be a bit surprised.
UpWithEvil is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2007, 03:04 PM   #19
joe33
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: Primo Carnera

Why are all the super size guys called frigging freaks all the time?,valuev gets it to,poor ****ers may well be different looking,but come on guys its not here thought there so big,i like valuev and bet carnera was a decent guy to,he seemed it,considering he got so badly ripped off,and in fact made more money through wrestling then being HW champ,how sad is that.
 Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2007, 03:26 PM   #20
Duodenum
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Primo Carnera

Quote:
Originally Posted by UpWithEvil
I think calling the various innuendos and whispered rumors "history" is overstating the case.

For many years I, like yourself, openly believed the derogatory tales of Da Preem, a talentless lummox who couldn't fight a lick but was pushed to the top through a series of fixed fights arranged by his mobster handlers. Upon further investigation, however, I find myself increasingly unconvinced on that score; which fighters have admitted to taking a dive? What firsthand accounts exist of the flim-flammery?

When I was a lad doing a bit of boxing myself, a grizzled old-timer confided in my that when you go to see a major boxing show, you can assume that 25% of the fights are not on the level to some extent. I don't doubt that Da Preem benefitted from a few paid divers in his day, but do completely discredit his accomplishments and assume that all of his wins were shams is amazingly unfair.

And the final nail in the coffin of "Primo's fights were all fixed" is to watch the video for yourself. Far from being a talentless oaf, on-film Carnera looks like a credible and skilled contender. His jab was a solid weapon, and his footwork was nowhere near as ponderous as legend would tell you. Make the effort to view some of this footage yourself - vs. George Godfrey, vs. Ernie Schaff, vs. Sharkey (both fights), Kingfish Levinsky, Ray Impelletiere, or whatever else you can scrounge up. I think you'll be a bit surprised.
Well stated. During the time Carnera was boxing, it was still illegal to transport boxing films across state lines in the US, so the scribes and radio announcers were the gatekeepers of whatever information the public which didn't witness his matches in person received. These were often sources of negative information about Primo's boxing.

By the time interstate ban on shipping films was lifted, WW II was underway, and Primo's Italy was on the side opposing the English speaking world. The real truth about what caliber of heavyweight Primo really was then got confined to the acquisitions of fight film collectors.
It is only with the advent of services like youtube that a wide audience can finally see with their own eyes just what level of performer Carnera truly was. It's about time!
Duodenum is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2007, 03:35 PM   #21
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,069
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Primo Carnera

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by red cobra
So all the written history on Primo Carnera is false?
I would not go as far as to call it writen history. Just a series of improbable alegations made by one man with an axe to grind.

Quote:
The mob DIDN'T fix his fights and steer him to the title? He got there legitimately and just fell apart one night against Max Baer?
Yes. That is about the size of it.

Quote:
I guess you're free to believe anything you want. Just revise history all you want to.
I don't feel that I am revising anything. Just challenging an urban myth. If you go back to the original historical sources then there is not verry much.

Quote:
so I guess it's time to rewrite the book on Primo Carnera too and make him a "good champion".
Unless you literaly accept the acusation that the majority of his big fights were fixed then yes he was a good champion.
janitor is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2007, 06:11 PM   #22
Luigi1985
Cane Corso
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,326
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Primo Carnera

Quote:
Originally Posted by red cobra
An idiot because I don't buy into revisionist history about Primo Carnera? I have nothing against Carnera. I have no reason to have anything against Primo Carnera. Is it because he was Italian that you'e so defensive about the guy and you want to tweak it so he's something that he wasn't? Were the great sportswriters like Paul Gallico and others who wrote about him just full of shit or something? It's like me building up Jerry Quarry, who was Irish, up into something far greater than he was because I happen to be Irish too. Where's your evidence to support saying that he was anything than what he was widely reported that he was? I happen to admire the fact that he gave it his all against the big hitters he faced who slaughtered him, and had the balls to keep trying until the end like he did against Louis. He had courage, and thats all he had left after the mob betrayed and then deserted him. He had courage and like I said, he had size and rudimentary boxing skills. That and the infuence of some very crooked men led him to the top, where he did, if you'll remenber from my first post, win his title legitimately with that right uppercut against Sharkey. The guy couldn't take a damned punch, get it? This was made painfully obvious when he fought Baer, Louis and Haynes, and by then, it was time for Primo to switch to pro wrestling. He seemed like a good hearted, likeable, somewhat childlike kind of man, so you're wrong, he was impossible to hate. Just dont rewrite boxing history for the sake of some whim of yours.

I read only until the part with " You defended him because he was Italian...", the silliest excuse you can make when you haven´t any other reasons with any sense...
Luigi1985 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2007, 07:16 AM   #23
red cobra
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Sea of Tranquility
Posts: 13,110
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Primo Carnera

Ok, I get it! You believe it, so it's true! Don't let the facts of history, written by those who were there and saw it get in your way. Just remember, all those writers had axes to grind and wouldn't know a fixed fight from a hole in the ground. They all had it in for poor Primo, dont you know!
red cobra is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2007, 07:54 AM   #24
UpWithEvil
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 340
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Primo Carnera

Quote:
Ok, I get it! You believe it, so it's true! Don't let the facts of history, written by those who were there and saw it get in your way.
What are the "facts of history" in this regard? You'll need more specifics and less hand-waving if you want to convince.
UpWithEvil is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2007, 10:48 AM   #25
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,069
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Primo Carnera

Quote:
Originally Posted by red cobra
Ok, I get it! You believe it, so it's true! Don't let the facts of history, written by those who were there and saw it get in your way. Just remember, all those writers had axes to grind and wouldn't know a fixed fight from a hole in the ground. They all had it in for poor Primo, dont you know!
It depends what you mean by people who were there at the time.

If you mean a group of xenophobic hacks most of who had not been to any of Carnera's fights then the facts of history are on your side.

If you mean people who actualy fought Carnera and sparred with him or trained other fighters of the period then you won't find anybody who took him lightly or beleived him to be a product of fixed fights.
janitor is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2007, 11:26 AM   #26
red cobra
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Sea of Tranquility
Posts: 13,110
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Primo Carnera

Ok, let's look at this from another angle, what grounds do you have to support that history isnt true? That it was all a case of sportswriters with grudges, and that Carnera did not have ties to the mob?
red cobra is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2007, 11:31 AM   #27
UpWithEvil
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 340
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Primo Carnera

Quote:
Ok, let's look at this from another angle, what grounds do you have to support that history isnt true?
I don't think anyone is making the claim, "history isn't true". We're just skeptical of the veracity of these nebulous rumors that you are clinging so tightly to.
UpWithEvil is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2007, 12:36 PM   #28
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,069
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Primo Carnera

Quote:
Originally Posted by red cobra
Ok, let's look at this from another angle, what grounds do you have to support that history isnt true? That it was all a case of sportswriters with grudges, and that Carnera did not have ties to the mob?
The onus is on those who make the alegations to prove them not on those who question them to disprove them. You can prove a positive but you cannot prove a negative. For example you canot prove that there is not a purple penguin somwhere in the world.

Carnera did have ties to the mob but so did everybody back then to some extent. He was involved in a couple of questionable fights but so were most fighters of the period.

Why should he be singled out of all the fighters of this period for criticism?
janitor is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2007, 12:46 PM   #29
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Primo Carnera

Primo Carnera was the greatest heavyweight champion ever.
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2007, 01:08 PM   #30
red cobra
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Sea of Tranquility
Posts: 13,110
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Primo Carnera

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
The onus is on those who make the alegations to prove them not on those who question them to disprove them. You can prove a positive but you cannot prove a negative. For example you canot prove that there is not a purple penguin somwhere in the world.

Carnera did have ties to the mob but so did everybody back then to some extent. He was involved in a couple of questionable fights but so were most fighters of the period.

Why should he be singled out of all the fighters of this period for criticism?
Because he is historically implicated with much corroboration that you obviously havent heard of or haven't read. So just go and pick any historical fact and claim that since you cannot prove a negative that it must not be true. Again, I want to know how you guys can just arbitrarily say that historical allegations held against Carnera regarding the mob (a European mob) and their influence on the outcomes of his fights are not true. What grounds do you have that the sports writers were all just harboring grudges.
red cobra is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013