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Old 07-10-2007, 02:15 PM   #31
janitor
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by red cobra
Because he is historically implicated with much corroboration that you obviously havent heard of or haven't read.
Thankyou.

I have studied the primary evidence for Carnera's fixed fights in some detail and it dose not stand up to scrutiny.

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So just go and pick any historical fact and claim that since you cannot prove a negative that it must not be true.
A historian must justify a historical event by providing positive primary evidence. If that evidence is not available then it is not a historical fact. It is just a rumour.

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Again, I want to know how you guys can just arbitrarily say that historical allegations held against Carnera regarding the mob (a European mob) and their influence on the outcomes of his fights are not true.
The onus is on those making these alegations to prove them not vice versa.

If you stand trial for an ofense then the prosecution has to prove you did it.

If a historian wants to demonstrate that Abraham Lincoln had syphilis he has to prove it. He dose not ask other historians to disprove it.

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What grounds do you have that the sports writers were all just harboring grudges.
What sports writers?

These legions of sports writers you talk about are one verry vocal individual who is not particularly reliable. Anybody else who makes the alegations is simply repeating what he said.

Carnera was an Italian who was used by Musolini as a poster boy. This meant that any acusations against him fell on verry fertile ground. The press did not want an Italian champion and especialy not one used as a propaganda tool by a fascist dictator.
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Old 07-10-2007, 02:36 PM   #32
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

How about Leon See who said that at least 28 of Carnera's early fights were fixed, and all this before he made it big and American mobsters took over his management?
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Old 07-10-2007, 02:48 PM   #33
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

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How about Leon See who said that at least 28 of Carnera's early fights were fixed, and all this before he made it big and American mobsters took over his management?
Leon See is the fly in the ointment.

He certainly had a grudge against Carnera and his testimony is contradictory if not incredible in some instances. This is where everything stemns from.

In a way it is a bit like the legend of the Bermuda Triangle. You have a huge and sprawling mythology which looks impresive but when you trace it back it all originates with a single source which is unreliable.
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Old 07-10-2007, 02:57 PM   #34
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by janitor
Leon See is the fly in the ointment.

He certainly had a grudge against Carnera and his testimony is contradictory if not incredible in some instances. This is where everything stemns from.

In a way it is a bit like the legend of the Bermuda Triangle. You have a huge and sprawling mythology which looks impresive but when you trace it back it all originates with a single source which is unreliable.
So, without Leon See - Carnera wouldn't be the controversial figure he is? See is the only source?
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Old 07-10-2007, 03:10 PM   #35
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

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So, without Leon See - Carnera wouldn't be the controversial figure he is? See is the only source?
Bingo.
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Old 07-10-2007, 03:14 PM   #36
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by janitor
Bingo.

Aye...

Janitor this is a very heavy handed counter-position. You leave very little room for intuition and generalisation. I understand why you are doing it, but it should always be stated that the mob were heavily, heavily, heavily involved in boxing once it hit New York, and that Carnera was involved with these toughs.

I generally speak for him, because I think he gets one hell of a hard time from people who should know better. But Carnera is a contriversial figure because he was involved with mobsters, not because of one shady characters vendeta.

I have no source.
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Old 07-10-2007, 03:23 PM   #37
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by McGrain
Aye...

Janitor this is a very heavy handed counter-position. You leave very little room for intuition and generalisation. I understand why you are doing it, but it should always be stated that the mob were heavily, heavily, heavily involved in boxing once it hit New York, and that Carnera was involved with these toughs.

I generally speak for him, because I think he gets one hell of a hard time from people who should know better. But Carnera is a contriversial figure because he was involved with mobsters, not because of one shady characters vendeta.

I have no source.
Don't get me wrong here.

Carnera was certainly controled by the mob and was involved in at least one fixed fight probably more.

What I disagree with is that he should be singled out among all the top fighters of this era for criticism. Baer and Braddock both had dubious fights.

Compared to Young Stribling for example, Carnera was a choir boy.
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Old 07-10-2007, 03:36 PM   #38
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by janitor
Don't get me wrong here.

Carnera was certainly controled by the mob and was involved in at least one fixed fight probably more.

What I disagree with is that he should be singled out among all the top fighters of this era for criticism. Baer and Braddock both had dubious fights.

Compared to Young Stribling for example, Carnera was a choir boy.
What were Baer and Braddocks dubious fights Janitor?
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Old 07-10-2007, 03:44 PM   #39
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

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What were Baer and Braddocks dubious fights Janitor?
Max Baer's fight against Dutch Weimar-

"A light slap to Weimer's ribs ended the bout, causing the crowd to roar its disgust. Someone threw an empty whiskey bottle at Baer. Leaving the ring, he turned to the crowd and shouted, "Well, you paid to get in - suckers."

The bout, termed "a fake, fiasco and disgrace" by Premier Mitchell F. Hepburn (who had been in the crowd), resulted in the reorganization of the Ontario Athletic Commission and the appointment of P. J. Mulqueen as Chairman to restore confidence of fans.

Jimmy Braddock has two dubious no contest bouts-

One against Maxie Rosenbloom

"Braddock and Rosenbloom were accused of a pre-arranged deal -- the MN Commission allowed each $350 in training expenses, the balance of their purses was donated to charity".

And one against Abe Feldman which resulted in his boxing liscence being revoked.
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Old 07-10-2007, 03:46 PM   #40
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by janitor
What I disagree with is that he should be singled out among all the top fighters of this era for criticism.

Spot on. This is the core of the thing.
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Old 07-10-2007, 03:49 PM   #41
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by mcvey
What were Baer and Braddocks dubious fights Janitor?
You mentioned Young Stribling,he fought Carnera twice both fights ended in dsqs,one apiece,both are generally accepted as fixes,and that information doesnt come from Leon See,,but from writers who were present at the bouts ,Carneras fights with Ace Clark,Bombo Chevalier ,and George Godfrey are also highly suspect,when a new Heavyweight Champion is crowned ,traditionaly he is rated the fighter of the year by the Ring magazine ,the year Carnera won the title ,no award was given.doesnt it seem a little strange that a man with such a string of kos ,meets a light heavyweight whom he outweighs by over 80lbs ,a man past his best yet not only does he fail to ko him he never looks like dropping him ,in fact the light heavy ,[Tommy Loughran},who was almost devoid in punching power staggered Carnera in the 4th and 10th rounds.Though Jack Sharkey denied taking a dive to Carnera he did say in an interview in 1971 that Carneras results in fights were "sceptical and dubious",and that reinforced the publics view that his defence against Carnera wasnt on the level
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Old 07-10-2007, 03:53 PM   #42
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by janitor
Max Baer's fight against Dutch Weimar-

"A light slap to Weimer's ribs ended the bout, causing the crowd to roar its disgust. Someone threw an empty whiskey bottle at Baer. Leaving the ring, he turned to the crowd and shouted, "Well, you paid to get in - suckers."

The bout, termed "a fake, fiasco and disgrace" by Premier Mitchell F. Hepburn (who had been in the crowd), resulted in the reorganization of the Ontario Athletic Commission and the appointment of P. J. Mulqueen as Chairman to restore confidence of fans.

Jimmy Braddock has two dubious no contest bouts-

One against Maxie Rosenbloom

"Braddock and Rosenbloom were accused of a pre-arranged deal -- the MN Commission allowed each $350 in training expenses, the balance of their purses was donated to charity".

And one against Abe Feldman which resulted in his boxing liscence being revoked.
I am not familiar with the Weimar fight and will of course take your word on it . The Rosenbloom one has several versions I beleive,in the Feldman fight ,I think Braddock came in to the ring with a broken hand ,but concealed it as he needed the pay day.
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:01 PM   #43
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by mcvey
You mentioned Young Stribling,he fought Carnera twice both fights ended in dsqs,one apiece,both are generally accepted as fixes,and that information doesnt come from Leon See,,but from writers who were present at the bouts
There is a serious question mark over the Stribling fights. Of course if they were fixed then it counts against Stribling as much as it counts against Carnera. Furthermore we would have to look into some of Stribling's other fights which would have far reaching implications for other fighters of the era.

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Carneras fights with Ace Clark,Bombo Chevalier ,and George Godfrey are also highly suspect
Suspect on circumstantial evidence.

If we are going to pursue Carnera for the Godfey fight then lets look at some of Godfreys other DQ losses. Then watch how har the sh1t flies and how many contemporary fighters get covered in it.

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when a new Heavyweight Champion is crowned ,traditionaly he is rated the fighter of the year by the Ring magazine ,the year Carnera won the title ,no award was given.
I don't think he fit their ideal of a heavyweight champion.

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doesnt it seem a little strange that a man with such a string of kos ,meets a light heavyweight whom he outweighs by over 80lbs ,a man past his best yet not only does he fail to ko him he never looks like dropping him
Loughran was the best defensive fighter in the division at the time. Why should Carnera necisarily knock him out or drop him?

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in fact the light heavy ,[Tommy Loughran},who was almost devoid in punching power staggered Carnera in the 4th and 10th rounds.
A light heavyweight with good punching technique can stagger a heavyweight with a good chin. Laws of physics.
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:07 PM   #44
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by mcvey
I am not familiar with the Weimar fight and will of course take your word on it . The Rosenbloom one has several versions I beleive,in the Feldman fight ,I think Braddock came in to the ring with a broken hand ,but concealed it as he needed the pay day.
I get the idea that if these fights were on Carnera's record you and others would draw the obvious conclusion.

Once you acept in principal that sombody participates in a lot of fixed fights you will start seeing them.
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:12 PM   #45
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by mcvey
Though Jack Sharkey denied taking a dive to Carnera he did say in an interview in 1971 that Carneras results in fights were "sceptical and dubious",and that reinforced the publics view that his defence against Carnera wasnt on the level
Jack Johnson explicitly claimed (incorectly) that he took a dive against Jess Willard.

If we are going to question the legitimacy of Carneras win over Sharkey based on a suggestive coment by Sharkey then lets look further-

Jim Jeffries claimed that he was poisoned against Jack Johnson.

Jack Johnson claimed that he dived against Willard.

Jess Willard claimed that Jack Dempsey beat him with loaded gloves.

Lets at least hold everybody else to the same scrutiny as Carnera.
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