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Old 07-10-2007, 04:14 PM   #46
McGrain
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Jess Willard claimed that Jack Dempsey beat him with loaded gloves.
As a totally irrelevant aside, did you ever see the interviews Carpenter did with Tyson? He tells Tyson of interviewing Willard as a very old man, and the ex-champ produced the big-headed bolt he claimed Dempsey hit him with - held in the glove like you would hold an ice-cream.

Tyson was having none of it.
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:31 PM   #47
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

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Originally Posted by janitor
Jack Johnson explicitly claimed (incorectly) that he took a dive against Jess Willard.

If we are going to question the legitimacy of Carneras win over Sharkey based on a suggestive coment by Sharkey then lets look further-

Jim Jeffries claimed that he was poisoned against Jack Johnson.

Jack Johnson claimed that he dived against Willard.

Jess Willard claimed that Jack Dempsey beat him with loaded gloves.

Lets at least hold everybody else to the same scrutiny as Carnera.
As I said Sharkey allways denied taking a dive against Carnera,I mentioned his comments to illustrate that some of Carneras fights were regarded as dubious,I never suggested that the Sharkey fight wasnt on the level ,though Sharkey handled Carnera with ease in the first fight even dropping him,possibly Carnera had improved,what makes me beleive some ,and I mean some not all of Carneras fights were fixed was his ko ratio,which was very high,yet he couldnt even wobble Loughran ,whom he outweighed by over 80lbs.Primo was better than he is generally given credit for ,he was a fair mechanical boxer with a ton of heart,but lets not go overboard and pretend he was one of the better Champs,he wasnt,his ko percentage compares favourably with most boxers yet noqwhere is he credited as a puncher in any list or AT ratings this suggests that some of his results are viewed sceptically ,at least.
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:41 PM   #48
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

For many years I thought Primo was exactly what I read he was.He was called the worst HWT. champ of all time.This is what the so called 'experts' in the written and televised news media said.Then I watched Primo fight Baer on ESPN Classic Boxing.A losing effort to be sure but Primo did'nt look all that bad.He was knocked down 11 times but he also got up 11 times demonstrating he had the most important asset a fighter needs which is Heart.His Boxing skills were basic but he got the most out of what he had.His foot work was ponderous but his balance was decent and he was far from the clumsy un coordinated slob he was made out to be.His greatest problem was that he could not take a punch.Primo was a much better fighter than he was made out to be and dos'nt deserve the title"worst Hwy.champ of all time"Thank you.
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:43 PM   #49
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

The mob fixed fights for him, even against men Carnera probably would have beaten, to secure their large, marketable boxer. That's what people investing in novelty fighters do. This is nothing new, although probably more so at that time. Carnera's legacy is that he got his ass handed to him by Baer and Louis. Period.
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:55 PM   #50
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
what makes me beleive some ,and I mean some not all of Carneras fights were fixed was his ko ratio,which was very high,yet he couldnt even wobble Loughran ,whom he outweighed by over 80lbs.
Lets not forget that Loughran was a defensive fighter and one with a track record of beating super heavyweights.

Do you have any reason to beleive that Max Baer wobled Loughran?

Quote:
Primo was better than he is generally given credit for ,he was a fair mechanical boxer with a ton of heart,but lets not go overboard and pretend he was one of the better Champs
That was not what I intended to imply.

Quote:
he wasnt,his ko percentage compares favourably with most boxers yet noqwhere is he credited as a puncher in any list or AT ratings
Not all fighters with high knockout percentages are big punchers. Take Muhamad Ali for example.

I would add that Carnera knocked Bearcat Wright through the ropes with such force that he broke a ring post. This suggests that Carnera could bang when he put his body into it.
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Old 07-10-2007, 04:59 PM   #51
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

Primo won his title against Sharkey legitimately, in my opinion with that right uppercut, but in all succesive bouts, bout title fights and otherwise, you saw the true Carnera, "unenhanced" let us say, by the sinister hand of the mob. As stated in a previous post, you didn't see the "ko artist" as fashioned by the mob, but a guy who was unable to even faze a vastly outweighed Tommy Loughran, and his glass jaw, or, if you will, his propensity for getting decked was revealed. If he hadn't been protected in his early career by those thugs, then his cin would have been exposed much earlier, like it almost was against Sharkey the first time. He couldn't have been a total washout as a fighter, and he did have some skills, but you guys are painfully overrating him, and that is revisionism as much as those idiots who write those "Joe Louis wasnt a great fighter" threads.
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:10 PM   #52
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by red cobra
Primo won his title against Sharkey legitimately, in my opinion with that right uppercut,
Good start.

Quote:
but in all succesive bouts, bout title fights and otherwise, you saw the true Carnera, "unenhanced" let us say , by the sinister hand of the mob.
He seems to have done better than any of the other champions between Tunney and Louis in terms of quality of title defences and results.

If that is the unenhanced Carnera then he was at least the equal of say Jack Sharkey.

Quote:
As stated in a previous post, you didn't see the "ko artist" as fashioned by the mob, but a guy who was unable to even faze a vastly outweighed Tommy Loughran,
You fail to mention that Loughran had already beaten two ranked contenders who were of a similar size to Carnera. One of them in his previous bout.

This suggests that it was not merely Carneras size that won him the fight but also a measure of boxing ability.

Quote:
and his glass jaw, or, if you will, his propensity for getting decked was revealed. If he hadn't been protected in his early career by those thugs, then his cin would have been exposed much earlier, like it almost was against Sharkey the first time.
Batling Nelson was decked a lot but nobody questions that he was a tough nut to crack.

Quote:
He couldn't have been a total washout as a fighter, and he did have some skills, but you guys are painfully overrating him, and that is revisionism
Revisionism of what?

The testimony of one man with an axe to grind.

Do you think that this one man represents the voice of history?

Why don't you look at what some of Carnera's oponents and contemporary fighters said about him.

Why don't you look at what managers and trainers who had the chance to match their prospects against him thought.

Why dont you look how some fighters and journalists picked him to beat Joe Louis.
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Old 07-10-2007, 05:14 PM   #53
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveTheWave
Carnera's legacy is that he got his ass handed to him by Baer and Louis. Period.
Arguably the hardest punching heavyweight of all time and the best heavyweight finisher of all time.

You could always add that before that he won the heavyweight championship.
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Old 07-10-2007, 08:32 PM   #54
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

[quote=janitor]
Quote:

Lets not forget that Loughran was a defensive fighter and one with a track record of beating super heavyweights.

Do you have any reason to beleive that Max Baer wobled Loughran?



That was not what I intended to imply.



Not all fighters with high knockout percentages are big punchers. Take Muhamad Ali for example.

I would add that Carnera knocked Bearcat Wright through the ropes with such force that he broke a ring post. This suggests that Carnera could bang when he put his body into it.
As to Baer wobbling Loughran ,I havent seen the fight but the various reports Ive read make it seem doubtful that Baer actually made contact with Tommys chin,Loughran jabbed his face off,as he did Braddock,you say Carnera was the equal of Sharkey ,but Sharkey acheived something Primo didnt ,he floored and kod Loughran,you keep harping on this theme of "one man with an axe to grinds testimony"personally Ive never read anything by Leon See,on boxing or any other subject ,but I did read an article years ago written by Paul Journee,the french Heavyweight and sometime promoter,he was in on the ground floor so to speakfor the Carnera hype,he stated that several of Primos early contests were prearranged,the British boxing historian Gilbert Odd who saw several Carnera fights from ringside agreed as did Hype Igoe and Paul Gallico two US writers,weve covered this ground before ,and I didnt intend to take the bait this time ,but people calling Carnera a"good Champion" drew me in Nat Fleischer called him one of the worst,but I suppose he was influenced by Leon See rather than the evidence of his own eyes,rather like the Boxing Commissioner Bill Brown who called Carnera a "bum".Im done on this subject .
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:27 AM   #55
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

Carnera was groomed by shadowy people to become the next big (literally!) thing. Some of his fights were fixed, in other matches he had handpicked opposition. I was reading about Carnera last night incidentally in Harry Mullan's The Illustrated History Of Boxing and nowhere was it said that Carnera was good. Quite the opposite. According to the book, he was, among other things, "naturally clumsy" and "light hitting".
This was the situation painted not only in that book, but in almost every publication (including magazines) I have read over the years.
The overall consensus was that Carnera simply wasn't good. Not a bum certainly, but at best competent.

"The big bum kept standing on my feet." - Tommy Loughran.
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Old 07-11-2007, 08:17 AM   #56
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

Quote:
"The big bum kept standing on my feet." - Tommy Loughran.
"I'll moider the bum!"
- Tony Galento
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Old 07-11-2007, 12:35 PM   #57
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

what I've found is that a lot of boxing 'historians' take a source, and run with it. I've read where john l. sullivan was described as a cruel brawler, and that's why he was handled so easily by corbett, but the primary sources on sullivan dispute that, although there were some who called him unscientific. taking eyewitness accounts of someone also has to be taken with a grain of salt, there's millions of boxing fans who will swear that john ruiz sucks, but they have a personal disagreement with his style, and will not acknowledge the fact he has a competent jab, a decent right hand and a lot of heart, who got up and kept fighting against golota and eked out a close win through determination.

ultimately it's helpful to read the historical record and see what those who saw the fighter live says, but always question.
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Old 07-11-2007, 02:15 PM   #58
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
As to Baer wobbling Loughran ,I havent seen the fight but the various reports Ive read make it seem doubtful that Baer actually made contact with Tommys chin,Loughran jabbed his face off,as he did Braddock,
The bottom line is that nobody is necisarily going to take out or stagger a slickster like Loughran. I fail to see why Carnera's failure to do so is an issue.

Quote:
you say Carnera was the equal of Sharkey
I am not saying that he is the equal of Sharkey. I just think that his resume is similarly impresive.

Quote:
but Sharkey acheived something Primo didnt ,he floored and kod Loughran
He is one of verry few who did and in a later fight Loughran outpointed him.

The same Loughran who you criticize Carnera for not knocking out.

Quote:
,you keep harping on this theme of "one man with an axe to grinds testimony"personally Ive never read anything by Leon See,on boxing or any other subject ,but I did read an article years ago written by Paul Journee,the french Heavyweight and sometime promoter,he was in on the ground floor so to speakfor the Carnera hype,he stated that several of Primos early contests were prearranged,the British boxing historian Gilbert Odd who saw several Carnera fights from ringside agreed as did Hype Igoe and Paul Gallico two US writers,
If you look at these sources they almost certainly trace back to Leon See. Certainly Galicos book is simply an unrefined rehash of See's alegations.

Quote:
weve covered this ground before ,and I didnt intend to take the bait this time ,but people calling Carnera a"good Champion" drew me in
If you want to go into it Carnera has a better record vs common oponents than Max Baer dose. I would add that most of these fights are not among the ones that have been called into question.

That justifies calling him a good champion by any sensible definition.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:25 PM   #59
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

[quote=janitor]
Quote:


The bottom line is that nobody is necisarily going to take out or stagger a slickster like Loughran. I fail to see why Carnera's failure to do so is an issue.



I am not saying that he is the equal of Sharkey. I just think that his resume is similarly impresive.



He is one of verry few who did and in a later fight Loughran outpointed him.

The same Loughran who you criticize Carnera for not knocking out.



If you look at these sources they almost certainly trace back to Leon See. Certainly Galicos book is simply an unrefined rehash of See's alegations.



If you want to go into it Carnera has a better record vs common oponents than Max Baer dose. I would add that most of these fights are not among the ones that have been called into question.

That justifies calling him a good champion by any sensible definition.
Last word Paul Journee actually discovered Carnera,in1928 and it was he who trained Carnera for his first fights ,and him who introduced Carnera to See in the first place ,they agreed to act together Journee as trainer ,See as managerJournee had no need to repeat any allegations of See,s he started Carnera boxing in the first place,so knew exactly his limitations.Sharkey was finished when he met Loughran in the return,he wasoutpointed by Kingfish Levinsky and destroyed by Louis .[as a confidence booster after Joe had been kod by Schmeling].Ill go with Fleischer,Odd,Igoe,Gallico,Journee ,and Sharkey s opinion when it comes to Carnera,I dont know See,s and couldnt care less he was a non entity ,and a minnow ,who found himself swimming with sharks in the form of Good Time Charle Friedman,and Owney Madden ,Public enemy no 1 Carneras US managers,who pissed See off back to Paree.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:52 PM   #60
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
Last word Paul Journee actually discovered Carnera,in1928 and it was he who trained Carnera for his first fights ,and him who introduced Carnera to See in the first place ,they agreed to act together Journee as trainer ,See as manager
Dose this not suggest that Journrr held the same grudge as See for the same reasons?

That they were muscled out and lost control of their most valuable asset. Incidentaly See had no small ambitions for Carnera before he was droped.

Quote:
.Ill go with Fleischer,Odd,Igoe,Gallico,
I think that these figures either aped the opinions of the xenophobic media of the day or rehashed Sees alegations.

One group who seem to conspicuously speak of Carnera in more complimentary terms than these guys are the fighters who actualy shared a ring with him.

Quote:
I dont know See,s and couldnt care less he was a non entity ,and a minnow ,who found himself swimming with sharks in the form of Good Time Charle Friedman,and Owney Madden
Any prosecution of Carnera would essentialy hang on See's alegations. That is why he is important.
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