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Old 07-11-2007, 09:28 PM   #61
mcvey
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

[quote=janitor]
Quote:


Dose this not suggest that Journrr held the same grudge as See for the same reasons?

That they were muscled out and lost control of their most valuable asset. Incidentaly See had no small ambitions for Carnera before he was droped.



I think that these figures either aped the opinions of the xenophobic media of the day or rehashed Sees alegations.

One group who seem to conspicuously speak of Carnera in more complimentary terms than these guys are the fighters who actualy shared a ring with him.



Any prosecution of Carnera would essentialy hang on See's alegations. That is why he is important.
Fleischer and Odds opinions are paramount because they actualy saw Carneras fights from ringside,Fleischer never aped another mans opinions on boxing in his life ,he was known as a man of integrity,as was Gilbert Odd,Britains premier boxing historian,to suggest otherwise is a slur on their impeccable reputations.Which boxers opinions are complimentary to Carnera? Not Larry Gains who not only fought and beat Journee twice but comfortably outpointed Carnera when Larry was a fading 31 year old veteran,not Loughran who stated in print that he was told before hand that the only way he could beat Carnera was by ko,not Sharkey who stated that Carneras fights were highly dubious,so which ones? If only George Godfrey who was easily outpointing Carnera for 4 rounds before inexplicably fouling out in the 5th,could give us the low down,or Young Stribling whose own reputation was a trifle unsavouryafter koing his chauffeur in hick towns all cross America he split a pair of DSQs with Carnera ,Terry Leigh Lye ,the british boxing writer was a closefriend of Stribling but even he didnt beleive these fights were kosher ,and said so in a book,you contend that all these people base their opinion on Sees allegations ,sour grapes because he was forced out of the picture ,but Carnera didnt force him out the mob didyour argument doesnt hold water Janitor your contention that all these well respected boxing experts got their opinion of Carnera from See ,who dissapeared without trace once he was sent packing back to Europe,is laughable,again I ask which opponents of Carnera gave him positive write ups?
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Old 07-12-2007, 03:35 AM   #62
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
Fleischer and Odds opinions are paramount because they actualy saw Carneras fights from ringside,
If you are going to use the opinion of these gentlemen to justify your asertion that Carnera was not a good fighter then you must also put some weight on their more questionable opinions.

This would have far reaching concequences.

Quote:
Fleischer never aped another mans opinions on boxing in his life ,he was known as a man of integrity,as was Gilbert Odd,Britains premier boxing historian,to suggest otherwise is a slur on their impeccable
I am not suggesting that theylacked integrity but they were both prone to biases.

Fleischer especialy downgraded fighters such as Sonny Liston who he did not regard as men of good moral character. It is therfore plausible that he would have been all to willing to acept acusations made against Musolini's poster boy.

Quote:
reputations.Which boxers opinions are complimentary to Carnera?
Max Baer, Joe Louis, Max Schmeling all gave him a good write up. Jack Sharkey although you have fixed on a single coment of his was broadly complimentary.

There were also a significant number of journalists of the period who also rated him highly.

Quote:
If only George Godfrey who was easily outpointing Carnera for 4 rounds before inexplicably fouling out in the 5th,could give us the low down,or Young Stribling whose own reputation was a trifle unsavouryafter koing his chauffeur in hick towns all cross America he split a pair of DSQs with Carnera
You have hit the nail on the head there.

Stribling and Godfrey were both far worse than Carnera in terms of participation in fixed fights. If you look into their backgrounds then Carnera will by no stretch be the biggest looser.

If you call into question George Godfreys DQ losses then it will do moderate damage to Carnera's reputation but absolutely trash the reputation of Larry Gains whose single biggest career win was a DQ win over George Godfrey for the coloured heavyweight title. His second biggest win over Carnera you are already well on your way to pulling down.

The extent to which people both then and now single out Carnera for criticism on this basis is like a group of schoolyard bullies kicking about a small child.

Quote:
you contend that all these people base their opinion on Sees allegations ,sour grapes because he was forced out of the picture ,but Carnera didnt force him out the mob didyour argument doesnt hold water Janitor
See was targeting Carnera's handelers. Carnera himself was colateral damage although see might have felt some resentment towards him also.

Quote:
your contention that all these well respected boxing experts got their opinion of Carnera from See ,who dissapeared without trace once he was sent packing back to Europe,is laughable
See is ultimately where the legend originates from.

Everybody else is repeating Sees alegations for the most part. Put together those who are not and you are left with the kind of intrigue which surrounds most fighters of the period.
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Old 07-12-2007, 04:32 AM   #63
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

In case anybody is wondering what Primo Carnera is up to today.

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Old 07-12-2007, 06:26 AM   #64
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

[quote=janitor]
Quote:


If you are going to use the opinion of these gentlemen to justify your asertion that Carnera was not a good fighter then you must also put some weight on their more questionable opinions.

This would have far reaching concequences.



I am not suggesting that theylacked integrity but they were both prone to biases.

Fleischer especialy downgraded fighters such as Sonny Liston who he did not regard as men of good moral character. It is therfore plausible that he would have been all to willing to acept acusations made against Musolini's poster boy.



Max Baer, Joe Louis, Max Schmeling all gave him a good write up. Jack Sharkey although you have fixed on a single coment of his was broadly complimentary.

There were also a significant number of journalists of the period who also rated him highly.



You have hit the nail on the head there.

Stribling and Godfrey were both far worse than Carnera in terms of participation in fixed fights. If you look into their backgrounds then Carnera will by no stretch be the biggest looser.

If you call into question George Godfreys DQ losses then it will do moderate damage to Carnera's reputation but absolutely trash the reputation of Larry Gains whose single biggest career win was a DQ win over George Godfrey for the coloured heavyweight title. His second biggest win over Carnera you are already well on your way to pulling down.

The extent to which people both then and now single out Carnera for criticism on this basis is like a group of schoolyard bullies kicking about a small child.



See was targeting Carnera's handelers. Carnera himself was colateral damage although see might have felt some resentment towards him also.



See is ultimately where the legend originates from.

Everybody else is repeating Sees alegations for the most part. Put together those who are not and you are left with the kind of intrigue which surrounds most fighters of the period.
Can you post quotes by Joe Louis where he praises Carnera ,I only have these ,taken from his autobiography"old Chappie told me there was allways a cloud over his ability",the first thing that shocked Carnera and the crowd ,was that instead of him handling me like a babby ,I handled him.They were looking at his size not his talent.I moved him around easily."The fight moved along smoothly for me.I remember in the fifth round we clinched,and I picked him up off his feet.Thats when he spoke to me,the only time in the fight . He said I should be doing this to you.""Carnera had nothing.He couldnt punch." He pushed with his right and he was awkward.Mostly he tried to scare me with his weight"."He never hurt me once".Those are real ringing endorsements arent they? Let me guess Louis got that impression from See.these quotes can be found in the book Joe Louis My Life.,where are your quotes from Schmeling , Louis and Baer.? Larry Gains apart from beating Carnera comfortably also kod Schmeling,dont you find it curious that two of Carneras biggest" victories 2 ,were over Fighters known to " do business" Godfrey and Stribling? Where is your proof that the origin of Carneras fixed fights came from See? Do you really beleive that Fleischer ,Odd, Leigh Lye, Igoe,Gallico,and the boxers Ive quoted took their opinions from See,who was back in france before Carnera became a ranked fighter? a Man who acheived Jack Shit in the world of Boxing,See was a non-entity,the men Ive quoted were ,well respected figures in boxing at world level.Have you a quote from Joe Louis that rebutts or tempers the one I have provided?I fso Print it.or retract your aversion that Louis was complimentary to Carnera.
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Old 07-12-2007, 06:31 AM   #65
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

[quote=mcvey]
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Can you post quotes by Joe Louis where he praises Carnera ,I only have these ,taken from his autobiography"old Chappie told me there was allways a cloud over his ability",the first thing that shocked Carnera and the crowd ,was that instead of him handling me like a babby ,I handled him.They were looking at his size not his talent.I moved him around easily."The fight moved along smoothly for me.I remember in the fifth round we clinched,and I picked him up off his feet.Thats when he spoke to me,the only time in the fight . He said I should be doing this to you.""Carnera had nothing.He couldnt punch." He pushed with his right and he was awkward.Mostly he tried to scare me with his weight"."He never hurt me once".Those are real ringing endorsements arent they? Let me guess Louis got that impression from See.these quotes can be found in the book Joe Louis My Life.,where are your quotes from Schmeling , Louis and Baer.? Larry Gains apart from beating Carnera comfortably also kod Schmeling,dont you find it curious that two of Carneras biggest" victories 2 ,were over Fighters known to " do business" Godfrey and Stribling? Where is your proof that the origin of Carneras fixed fights came from See? Do you really beleive that Fleischer ,Odd, Leigh Lye, Igoe,Gallico,and the boxers Ive quoted took their opinions from See,who was back in france before Carnera became a ranked fighter? a Man who acheived Jack Shit in the world of Boxing,See was a non-entity,the men Ive quoted were ,well respected figures in boxing at world level.Have you a quote from Joe Louis that rebutts or tempers the one I have provided?I fso Print it.or retract your aversion that Louis was complimentary to Carnera.
Fleischer continued to carry recognize Muhamman Ali as Champion for some considerable time after he had been stripped by all governing bodies,he wasnt a man influenced by others ,neither was Gilbert Odd.who spent a lifetime watching and documenting boxing. Please provide evidence to the contrary other wise your argument is all smoke and mirrors,have you printed proof of Sees allegations? Ive never seen it or read of its existence in over 50 years of following boxing.
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Old 07-12-2007, 10:45 AM   #66
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
Can you post quotes by Joe Louis where he praises Carnera
Louis later said that Carnera was one of the better boxers he ever fought.

Don't recall the source but I will try to dig it out.

Quote:
Baer.?
On March 27, Max Baer predicted that Primo Carnera would end the meteoric rush of Joe Louis, when they met in June.

I think he will wear Louis down,” Baer said, “but no matter who comes out on top, I’ll be on hand to give the ultimate winner a trouncing. They all look alike to Maxie when he gets them in the ring.

In the run up to the second Carnera fight Jack Dempsey said-

"Primo Carnera has improved beyond recognition since they last met. Sharkey is going to have a serious fight on his hands"

Quote:
Larry Gains apart from beating Carnera comfortably also kod Schmeling,
He KOd an inexperienced teenage Schmeling. Hardly a tremendous victory.

Gains's legacy esentialy hangs on Godfrey and Carnera so why don't you crucify him?

Quote:
dont you find it curious that two of Carneras biggest" victories 2 ,were over Fighters known to " do business" Godfrey and Stribling?
I regard both these gentlemen with caution but if we are going to go down the road of questioning all their loses then there will be biger loosers than Schmeling.

Why don't you argue that Godfrey and Stribling were not real world class heavyweights but merely products of match fixing?

There is far more dirt on either of them than there is on Carnera.

Quote:
Where is your proof that the origin of Carneras fixed fights came from See?
Can you find a previous source?

I am not saying that there is not one but those historians who have criticaly analyzed the alegations agains Carnera tend to find that all roads lead back to See.

Quote:
Do you really beleive that Fleischer ,Odd, Leigh Lye, Igoe,Gallico,and the boxers Ive quoted took their opinions from See,who was back in france before Carnera became a ranked fighter? a Man who acheived Jack Shit in the world of Boxing,See was a non-entity,
See was a major figure in European boxing throughout his career.
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Old 07-12-2007, 10:56 AM   #67
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Default Re: Primo Carnera

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
Fleischer continued to carry recognize Muhamman Ali as Champion for some considerable time after he had been stripped by all governing bodies
But still refused to rank him in his top 10.

Quote:
,he wasnt a man influenced by others ,neither was Gilbert Odd.who spent a lifetime watching and documenting boxing. Please provide evidence to the contrary other wise your argument is all smoke and mirrors,
Every historian is influenced by contemporary sources to a greater or lesser extent as well as by the orthodoxy and media of the day.

You should have learned that on this site.

Quote:
have you printed proof of Sees allegations? Ive never seen it or read of its existence in over 50 years of following boxing.
See wrote a book detailing his alegations “Le mysterie Carnera” in which he alleged that Carneras new handlers travelled all over Europe fixing dozens fights sometimes just days apart in different countries. He wrote the phrases “combat arrange” and “combat sincere” next to bouts to indicate which were fixed and which weren’t.

That is the body of the octopus here.
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Old 07-12-2007, 11:06 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
Do you really beleive that Fleischer ,Odd, Leigh Lye, Igoe,Gallico,and the boxers Ive quoted took their opinions from See,who was back in france before Carnera became a ranked fighter? a Man who acheived Jack Shit in the world of Boxing,See
Leon See founded the French boxing comission.
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Old 07-12-2007, 12:43 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by mcvey
not Loughran who stated in print that he was told before hand that the only way he could beat Carnera was by ko,
Here is what Loughran said before the bout.

'I'll Outspeed Carnera,' Say Loughran,
Predicting Footwork Will Decide Bout



Philadelphia, PA
January 22, 1934
Loughran stated: 'When the final bell sounds I may be tired--I may be so fatigued that I will appear unable to hold up my arms--but before the match ends I will have given my all in my extreme efforts to take the title from Carnera.'
Loughran admits that he has been tired at the finish of ten-round bouts. 'But it isn't because I can't go a longer distance,' he explained. 'When I pace myself for ten rounds I give everything I have in that time. For fifteen I'll pace myself accordingly and will have all the necessary speed to show to advantage right on through to the final sound of the bell.'
Never Bothered by Wind
'In previous fifteen-round bouts,' added Loughran, 'my wind never bothered me. I would get my second wind along about the tenth round and then would breeze right on through the remaining five frames.
'Say, when the fifteenth sounds against Carnera I'll be just as strong as he is. However, at the closing bell--well, maybe I won't be so strong, but it'll all be over then.'
Loughran isn't worried in the least about the big difference in weight. 'I'll scale around 185, maybe a pound or so lighter,' said the former light-heavyweight champion. 'Suppose there is a difference of seventy pounds or so. What about it? It won't mean anything. Speed--speed, that's what will mean everything. Speed will win that fight and I'll outspeed that big Carnera fellow.'
When Tommy boards a train at Thirtieth Street Wednesday at noon he will be given a rousing sendoff by his Philadelphia friends. Several hundred are expected to be at the station to wish him luck and hope he returns 'with the bacon.'
Houghton in Camp
Loughran's manager, Joe Smith, and his chief spar-mate, Eddie Houghton, already are at Tommy's Palm Beach training camp. Turc Duncan, who will be in charge of the place, leaves next Sunday. Tom will start sparring next Monday.
In addition to Houghton, Smith has made definite arrangements to have Jack Pettifer, giant English scrapper, and Jack Hogan, of New York, act as Loughran's shock absorbers. It also is possible that Joe will accept Ray Impellitierre as a spar-mate for Loughran.
'Ray will be in Florida,' said Loughran, 'and he has offered to work with me. But it will be entirely up to Smith as to whom my sparring partners will be.'
Impellitierre, who recently was defeated by Loughran in New York, is even taller than Carnera. It was on the strength of his victory over Ray that Tommy was chosen as challenger for the February 22 championship match.
'They didn't think I could lick Impellitierre,' laughed the good-looking Loughran. 'Well, I did. And I'm going to lick Carnera, too, even though there are many who don't think I can.'
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Old 07-13-2007, 03:26 AM   #70
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Janitor...so basically in a nutshell you're saying that Carnera was actually a good fighter, but somehow, someway, this was lost on leading historians and reporters of the time.
And to say Odd and Fleischer had biases? And to insinuate that other boxing writers simply ape and mimic the popular opinion?

It's in black and white (thanks Mcvey) that Joe Louis clearly didn't rate Carnera...and yet you still carry on that he was held in high esteem by Louis.

Well, I'm glad you've educated us on the great Carnera conspiracy for the bald-faced lie it's been all this time. I might have been fooled into believing what all those silly old biased historians were telling for years and years.
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:02 AM   #71
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[quote]
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Originally Posted by fists of fury
Janitor...so basically in a nutshell you're saying that Carnera was actually a good fighter, but somehow, someway, this was lost on leading historians and reporters of the time.
It was not lost on the historians of the time. Carnera was a fighter who divided opinion. Like with say Jess Willard you can find a range of contemporary observers who give him both a good and bad write up.

If you refer to a source such as the Galico book you will find a range of negative remarks about Carnera by contemporary figures. If you read a biography that treats the contemporary quotes in an even handed way you will get a mixed picture.

Quote:
And to say Odd and Fleischer had biases? And to insinuate that other boxing writers simply ape and mimic the popular opinion?
Fleischer quite palpably had biases. After Sony Liston lost the title to Muhamad Ali he came into Fleischer's office and asked why he was not ranked. The answer-

"Because your record as a man outside the ring dose not justify it".

Quote:
It's in black and white (thanks Mcvey) that Joe Louis clearly didn't rate Carnera...and yet you still carry on that he was held in high esteem by Louis.
He was not held in high esteem by Louis but Louis did clearly state that Carnera was one of the best technical boxers he ever faced.

Quote:
Well, I'm glad you've educated us on the great Carnera conspiracy for the bald-faced lie it's been all this time. I might have been fooled into believing what all those silly old biased historians were telling for years and years.
You can laugh but what have you actualy bot when you break it down to the primary evidence.

And furthermore why dose Carnera particularly stand out among the fighters of the era in this respect. If you want to revise Carneras resume with a critical eye that is fine but cast the same critical eye over the other champions of the era.

At the end of the day the only outstanding diference between Carnera and the other top names of the era is that sombody wrote a book implying that most of his fights were fixed.
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:53 AM   #72
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What have I got as primary evidence? Film for one, and the opinions of virtually every boxing writer that's ever lived.

If you have a different opinion then that's okay by me, but don't go throwing accusations around is if it were fact. You don't know that Fleischer or Odd or any other writer was biased against Primo. Why would they be? It's pure speculation on your part without a shred of concrete evidence.
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:56 AM   #73
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PS-This is a Carnera thread, that's why we're limiting it to him, but I don't think for a second he was the only one who was 'connected' during that period.
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Old 07-13-2007, 08:01 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by fists of fury
What have I got as primary evidence? Film for one,
I happen to think Carnera looks prety good on film.

Quote:
and the opinions of virtually every boxing writer that's ever lived.
No you don't.

Quote:
If you have a different opinion then that's okay by me, but don't go throwing accusations around is if it were fact. You don't know that Fleischer or Odd or any other writer was biased against Primo. Why would they be? It's pure speculation on your part without a shred of concrete evidence.
If you are going to use the opinions of Fleischer and odd as testimony in this matter then you must plaqce weight on their other opinions like say Fleischer's top ten heavyweight list. Whether you call it bias or error their view can be radicaly wrong.

Now if you want to talk about concrete evidence then what concrete evidence is there that any of Carnera's fights were fixed outside of the testimony of L:eon See?
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:06 AM   #75
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[quote=janitor]
Quote:



If you are going to use the opinions of Fleischer and odd as testimony in this matter then you must plaqce weight on their other opinions like say Fleischer's top ten heavyweight list. Whether you call it bias or error their view can be radicaly wrong.

Now if you want to talk about concrete evidence then what concrete evidence is there that any of Carnera's fights were fixed outside of the testimony of L:eon See?
It's not purely two guy's opinions I'm speaking about, but you already knew that, didn't you? The majority of the public weren't sold on Carnera at all.
I read that part of the reason Carnera engaged in some fixed fights was because his 'backers' wanted to portray him as this monstrous, all-conquering heavyweight and Primo simply lacked the skills to pull it off without help. This is after the Wills fight, if I remember correctly.

You know that it's impossible for me to prove that Carnera had some 'arranged' fights, however where there is smoke there's fire, as they say.
Bottom line: I chose to believe the historians. You don't. Nothing more can be said about that.
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