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Old 11-29-2012, 09:11 PM   #1
JAB5239
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Default Top 13 h2h heavyweights in history

You can tear my list down, but Im hoping other will post their own list and reasons. Remember, keep the discussion civil.

The top 12 heavyweight h2h all time

1. Muhammad Ali - Showed his ability to overcome adversity many times and his skills would carry him over nearly every fighter ever.

2. Lennox Lewis - I will inevitably hear about his chin, but no fighter had his skills, size, power and agression when he was at his very best.

3. Larry Holmes - One of the gutsiest and most determined fighters with a skillset and chin to match.

4. Joe Louis - The greatest heavyweight if all time in my opinion. That doesn't mean his style wouldn't allow him to lose at times. It wouldn't be often, but it keeps him from being the best h2h in my opinion.

5. George Foreman - The man could be beat, but lets face it he could destroy any fighter on any given night.

6. Joe Frazier - I have a feeling Frazier being so high will bring a lot of controversy. But with his skill, stamina and tenacity it think few beat him at their respective bests.

7. Sonny Liston - At his best Liston was a tyrant capeable of beating nearly any man in history....and he was mean. A skilled, hard punching fighter who wasn't just in the ring for sport...he wanted to hurt you.

8. Wladimir Klitschko - Any man who can stay focused after 7 years and keep reigning on top has to be great and a threat to most fighters in history. He still doesn't crack my all time top 10 list, but with his skills, size and logevity he deserves a spot on this one.

9. Evander Holyfield - He wan't called the warrior for nothing. Had the chin, skills and stamina to fight with the best in history.

10. Vitaly Klitschko - As much as I hate to give anything to a guy I consider hugely overrated, Vittles is a tough guy and would be at any time in history. His size and awkwardness would provide problems for mant fighters.

11. Mike Tyson - No fighter in history was better in the first 4 rounds. If you were lucky to you still weren't out of danger, but you gave yourself a chance.

12. Jack Johnson - Any man who could fight under the duress Johnson was under would persevere and be great in any era. Oh, and the guy could fight.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:17 PM   #2
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Default Re: Top 13 h2h heavyweights in history

Foreman and Frazier too high

Vitali and Tyson too low

Jack Johnson isn't worth speculating on, in my opinion
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:20 PM   #3
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Default Re: Top 13 h2h heavyweights in history

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Originally Posted by NoNeck View Post
Foreman and Frazier too high

Vitali and Tyson too low

Jack Johnson isn't worth speculating on, in my opinion
Why?
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:28 PM   #4
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Default Re: Top 13 h2h heavyweights in history

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
You can tear my list down, but Im hoping other will post their own list and reasons. Remember, keep the discussion civil.

The top 12 heavyweight h2h all time

1. Muhammad Ali - Showed his ability to overcome adversity many times and his skills would carry him over nearly every fighter ever.

2. Lennox Lewis - I will inevitably hear about his chin, but no fighter had his skills, size, power and agression when he was at his very best.

3. Larry Holmes - One of the gutsiest and most determined fighters with a skillset and chin to match.

4. Joe Louis - The greatest heavyweight if all time in my opinion. That doesn't mean his style wouldn't allow him to lose at times. It wouldn't be often, but it keeps him from being the best h2h in my opinion.

5. George Foreman - The man could be beat, but lets face it he could destroy any fighter on any given night.

6. Joe Frazier - I have a feeling Frazier being so high will bring a lot of controversy. But with his skill, stamina and tenacity it think few beat him at their respective bests.

7. Sonny Liston - At his best Liston was a tyrant capeable of beating nearly any man in history....and he was mean. A skilled, hard punching fighter who wasn't just in the ring for sport...he wanted to hurt you.

8. Wladimir Klitschko - Any man who can stay focused after 7 years and keep reigning on top has to be great and a threat to most fighters in history. He still doesn't crack my all time top 10 list, but with his skills, size and logevity he deserves a spot on this one.

9. Evander Holyfield - He wan't called the warrior for nothing. Had the chin, skills and stamina to fight with the best in history.

10. Vitaly Klitschko - As much as I hate to give anything to a guy I consider hugely overrated, Vittles is a tough guy and would be at any time in history. His size and awkwardness would provide problems for mant fighters.

11. Mike Tyson - No fighter in history was better in the first 4 rounds. If you were lucky to you still weren't out of danger, but you gave yourself a chance.

12. Jack Johnson - Any man who could fight under the duress Johnson was under would persevere and be great in any era. Oh, and the guy could fight.
like the list but tyson is too low for me. see him beating ( in those first 4 rounds) more great fighters than holyfield could period
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:36 PM   #5
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Default Re: Top 13 h2h heavyweights in history

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Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
Why?
Foreman was an incomplete fighter in his first incarnation, which is what we're using. (Shitty pacing, no defense.)

Frazier was undersized, had a limited defense, and could be bulldozed or outboxed depending on the opponent.

Vitali is physically huge, has a chin and stamina, and boxes well enough to virtually never drop a round.

Not getting into Tyson, but he had a lot in his prime.

There's no reliable footage of Johnson and boxing was completely different back then.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:42 PM   #6
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Default Re: Top 13 h2h heavyweights in history

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Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post
like the list but tyson is too low for me. see him beating ( in those first 4 rounds) more great fighters than holyfield could period
You Canadian mu****a...
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:48 PM   #7
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Default Re: Top 13 h2h heavyweights in history

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You Canadian mu****a...
He's entirely correct.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:53 PM   #8
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Default Re: Top 13 h2h heavyweights in history

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He's entirely correct.
cobra is right though. i am canadian
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:57 PM   #9
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Default Re: Top 13 h2h heavyweights in history

I think Lewis should be a bit lower. And Tyson definitely above Vitali Klitschko. Maybe Wlad over Sonny Liston because of dominance.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:59 PM   #10
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Default Re: Top 13 h2h heavyweights in history

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I think Lewis should be a bit lower. And Tyson definitely above Vitali Klitschko. Maybe Wlad over Sonny Liston because of dominance.
i see what you're saying but you take let's say the top 30 heavies of all time, and which fighter beats more?
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:02 PM   #11
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Default Re: Top 13 h2h heavyweights in history

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoNeck View Post
Foreman was an incomplete fighter in his first incarnation, which is what we're using. (Shitty pacing, no defense.)
Yet he was still able to roll over greats like Frazier and Norton with little to no problem at all.

Quote:
Frazier was undersized, had a limited defense, and could be bulldozed or outboxed depending on the opponent.
The only person who "bulldozed" Frazier was Foreman. And his defense was good enough to make Ali miss repeatedy in their first fight. The size thing holds no water because we can find dozens of example of little guys beating larger guys in history.

Quote:
Vitali is physically huge, has a chin and stamina, and boxes well enough to virtually never drop a round.
A tough fight for anyone, no doubt. But lets not get to excited about him hardly ever dropping a round. He was hardly ever in the ring with good competition so that has a lot to do with it. Again, the size things means little. I remember Chris Byrd being competitive for 9 rounds before Vits quit, and I would put him antwhere near an all time great list.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:06 PM   #12
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Default Re: Top 13 h2h heavyweights in history

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Originally Posted by Hands of Iron View Post
He's entirely correct.
Quote:
Originally posted by nightcrawler
cobra is right though. i am canadian
I'm right about everything.

Holy beats as many great Heavies as Tyson, what round they win in or whether its by KO or not is of little significance. More importantly, Evander takes Mike's soul anytime they go up against each other.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:10 PM   #13
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Default Re: Top 13 h2h heavyweights in history

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I'm right about everything.

Holy beats as many great Heavies as Tyson, what round they win in or whether its by KO or not is of little significance. More importantly, Evander takes Mike's soul anytime they go up against each other.
same question as above though, take 30 great heavies and who beats more?

i think it takes a VERY special fighter to beat a prime tyson (only one guy did so and that was on the best night of his life)

i see holy getting beating by less than special fighters based on his sporadic performances and tendancy to abandon a plan on a whim
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:20 PM   #14
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Default Re: Top 13 h2h heavyweights in history

[quote=JAB5239;14298180]
Quote:

Yet he was still able to roll over greats like Frazier and Norton with little to no problem at all.
Norton had the same problem against others. Jimmy Young and past it Ali did just fine. Lyle made him look amateurish, which he was.

The first Frazier win was legitimately great.


Quote:
The only person who "bulldozed" Frazier was Foreman. And his defense was good enough to make Ali miss repeatedy in their first fight. The size thing holds no water because we can find dozens of example of little guys beating larger guys in history.
Getting bulldozed twice by Foreman and outboxed by a post-exile Ali lead me rate him lower on the h2h all time scale. I also take physical size into account because I'm not delusional.

Quote:
A tough fight for anyone, no doubt. But lets not get to excited about him hardly ever dropping a round. He was hardly ever in the ring with good competition so that has a lot to do with it. Again, the size things means little. I remember Chris Byrd being competitive for 9 rounds before Vits quit, and I would put him antwhere near an all time great list.
I don't remember Byrd being very competitive, but Vitali had a shoulder injury the whole time. As for the rounds thing, Holmes, for one, fought plenty of poor competition and struggled more than Vitali in those fights.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:31 PM   #15
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Default Re: Top 13 h2h heavyweights in history

Quote:
Originally posted by Nightcrawler
same question as above though, take 30 great heavies and who beats more?
I'd have to have a top 30 to say. Looking at the top 15 (and I don't call anyone past that 'great'), I'd say its about evens. Personally, I'd favor Holyfield over one or two more. Tyson winning more spectacularly most of the time, but not winning more. His losses against the greats would be more spectacular as well.

Quote:
i think it takes a VERY special fighter to beat a prime tyson
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Me too.

Quote:
i see holy getting beating by less than special fighters based on his sporadic performances and tendancy to abandon a plan on a whim
Anyone I pick to beat the best or near-best version of Holyfield is going to be damn special. Maybe he doesn't hold it together against the greats for as long as Tyson, but maybe not. He never got Buster'ed, I know that much.

When I'm talking H2H, I'm talking about the very best version of each guy doing a round-robin kind of thing anyway. I'll take the best Evander Holyfield over as many greats as I'll take the best Mike Tyson, but only one of them gets to have the other on his list, and for me, that one ain't Mike.
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