Why do ppl always say Duran moved up 2 weightclasses to beat Leonard?

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

its not an excuse. He rightly gets criticised for the fight.

It still doesn't change that the only time they fought with Duran in shape, Duran won.

It can also be said Ray beat every elite he ever fought and Duran did not, and the times Ray fought his fight he won easily. Two times. Ray winning easily when he changes his style regardless of excuses is the main thing which shows he was the variable.

[dyna]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

It can also be said Ray beat every elite he ever fought and Duran did not, and the times Ray fought his fight he won easily. Two times.

Ray fought like he did in the first Duran fight for most of his career.
He fought his own fight against Duran the first time.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

It can also be said Ray beat every elite he ever fought and Duran did not, and the times Ray fought his fight he won easily. Two times.

It is debatable as to who is greater I do agree.

Ray never fought his fight against a fully trained Duran so we can't say that is the variable really.

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by dyna

Ray fought like he did in the first Duran fight for most of his career.
He fought his own fight against Duran the first time.

Exactly, Ray had a gear Duran did not have, and Duran taught him to go to that gear when he needed to and he won easily when he did it. The second fight proves that , and the third fight adds to it. Ray had to learn to fight his fight.

[MAG1965]

Originally Posted by lufcrazy

It is debatable as to who is greater I do agree.

Ray never fought his fight against a fully trained Duran so we can't say that is the variable really.

This is the problem with Duran's career. He does not have many wins over great fighters elite fighters to back up the claim that he was the variable. Ray does. So just on that Ray has to be given the benefit of the doubt, and the fact Ray won the second and third fights and the Hagler fight in similar fashion, and the fact Duran lost to Benitez in similar fashion. Everything has to be looked at in totality, and when it is Ray is the variable I think. The third fight is significant because in 1989 Duran was champion and Ray was diminishing in skills, and still Ray could outspeed and outbox Duran easily. Won almost every round.

[lufcrazy]

Originally Posted by MAG1965

This is the problem with Duran's career. He does not have many wins over great fighters elite fighters to back up the claim that he was the variable. Ray does. So just on that Ray has to be given the benefit of the doubt, and the fact Ray won the second and third fights and the Hagler fight in similar fashion, and the fact Duran lost to Benitez in similar fashion. Everything has to be looked at in totality, and when it is Ray is the variable I think. The third fight is significant because in 1989 Duran was champion and Ray was diminishing in skills, and still Ray could outspeed and outbox Duran easily. Won almost every round.

No because more important in this instance is that Duran actually beat Leonard when in top shape.

[Colonel Sanders]

Originally Posted by dyna

Ray fought like he did in the first Duran fight for most of his career.
He fought his own fight against Duran the first time.

true

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by dyna

Ray fought like he did in the first Duran fight for most of his career.

He didn't, really. Even though he didn't normally "dance" or anything like that, he was more mobile in other fights, gave more angles. Compare his movement pattern during the early rounds in the Benitez fight to this fight and you'll see a pretty clear difference. He moved more and better against Benitez, who was much less agressive and less of a danger in close than Duran. That doesn't quite add up.

Leonard looks tense and static during the early rounds with Duran. He doesn't look his usual self. If you're going to claim (quite correctly) that Duran wasn't at his very best in the rematch you should also be honest about this.

Also, it was a closer fight than Duran fans want to let on. The times I've scored it, I've had Duran winning by 2 rds. A draw would not have been an outrage. Duran dominated the first half, but Leonard had the better of the second.

EDIT: My scorecard for Montreal (as I remember it - not written down).

Duran: 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 11, 13

Leonard: 5, 8, 10, 12, 14, 15

Rd 1: even.

Thought it was relatively easy to score for such a hard-fought fight. Rd 1 and 11 were the closest rounds, and could easily be scored in a different fashion without any arguments from me.

In other words, even if they'd never fought again I wouldn't agree that Duran had proved some clear superiorty h2h. He was slightly better on the night in a very tough fight, and I don't think Leonard looked his usual self.

[dyna]

Originally Posted by Bokaj

He didn't, really. Even though he didn't normally "dance" or anything like that, he was more mobile in other fights, gave more angles. Compare his movement pattern during the early rounds in the Benitez fight to this fight and you'll see a pretty clear difference. He moved more and better against Benitez, who was much less agressive and less of a danger in close than Duran. That doesn't quite add up.

Leonard looks tense and static during the early rounds with Duran. He doesn't look his usual self. If you're going to claim (quite correctly) that Duran wasn't at his very best in the rematch you should also be honest about this.

Also, it was a closer fight than Duran fans want to let on. The times I've scored it, I've had Duran winning by 2 rds. A draw would not have been an outrage. Duran dominated the first half, but Leonard had the better of the second.

You're certainly true and I don't really know what the point of the whole discussion Mag and others had anymore. (I doubt anyone still knows without going back a few pages)
But especially during the first fight Duran his skills were a few light years apart from Leonards.
Leonard is faster / stronger and bigger, if Duran didn't have the brains he has, he would have lost all three Leonard fights and the Hagler fights by stoppage.

On your edit: I agree that Duran didn't prove to be a better man h2h. (Atleast at welter and up)

[duranimal]

Originally Posted by Bokaj

He didn't, really. Even though he didn't normally "dance" or anything like that, he was more mobile in other fights, gave more angles. Compare his movement pattern during the early rounds in the Benitez fight to this fight and you'll see a pretty clear difference. He moved more and better against Benitez, who was much less agressive and less of a danger in close than Duran. That doesn't quite add up.

Leonard looks tense and static during the early rounds with Duran. He doesn't look his usual self. If you're going to claim (quite correctly) that Duran wasn't at his very best in the rematch you should also be honest about this.

Also, it was a closer fight than Duran fans want to let on. The times I've scored it, I've had Duran winning by 2 rds. A draw would not have been an outrage. Duran dominated the first half, but Leonard had the better of the second.

EDIT: My scorecard for Montreal (as I remember it - not written down).

Duran: 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 11, 13

Leonard: 5, 8, 10, 12, 14, 15

Rd 1: even.

Thought it was relatively easy to score for such a hard-fought fight. Rd 1 and 11 were the closest rounds, and could easily be scored in a different fashion without any arguments from me.

In other words, even if they'd never fought again I wouldn't agree that Duran had proved some clear superiorty h2h. He was slightly better on the night in a very tough fight, and I don't think Leonard looked his usual self.

Leonard said only a few months ago on "Ringside" that if the fight had been fought on the Thursday or Saturday he would have won as he just did'nt feel right on the day of the fight

The expression of the presenters faces was priceless

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by dyna

You're certainly true and I don't really know what the point of the whole discussion Mag and others had anymore. (I doubt anyone still knows without going back a few pages)
But especially during the first fight Duran his skills were a few light years apart from Leonards.
Leonard is faster / stronger and bigger, if Duran didn't have the brains he has, he would have lost all three Leonard fights and the Hagler fights by stoppage.

On your edit: I agree that Duran didn't prove to be a better man h2h. (Atleast at welter and up)

Leonard was certainly faster, and his handspeed superiorty is what kept him in the fight at times. Duran was just as strong, though. I agree that Duran showed more skill, and especially more cunning, but I don't think the difference was huge.

Leonard was naturally bigger, but I do think the point gets a bit exagerrated at times. Duran was quite comfortable at WW. Still very strong, granite jaw and had pretty good speed and good power.

Some fighters just become fatter versions of themselves when moving up, and this was also partly true about Duran above WW, but in Montreal he had filled out nicely with muscle.

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by duranimal

Leonard said only a few months ago on "Ringside" that if the fight had been fought on the Thursday or Saturday he would have won as he just did'nt feel right on the day of the fight

The expression of the presenters faces was priceless

Did Duran say anything about the bathroom conditions in New Orleans? Would have liked to the presenter's face then.

[dyna]

Originally Posted by duranimal

Leonard said only a few months ago on "Ringside" that if the fight had been fought on the Thursday or Saturday he would have won as he just did'nt feel right on the day of the fight

The expression of the presenters faces was priceless

Even the "biggest" men can have a day off.

Eric Esch lost to Mitchell Rose in his only KO loss, he said he was a bit sick...(tired and sore, third fight in a month for him)
Or maybe a prime Rose is just a h2h beast

[duranimal]

Originally Posted by Bokaj

Did Duran say anything about the bathroom conditions in New Orleans? Would have liked to the presenter's face then.

Oh that was such a lame & hide up the sofa cringeworthy attempt at cutting edge satire

Stick too farting loudly at dinner parties if it's attention ye crave

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by duranimal

Leonard said only a few months ago on "Ringside" that if the fight had been fought on the Thursday or Saturday he would have won as he just did'nt feel right on the day of the fight

The expression of the presenters faces was priceless