Fights or Fighters you remember that "evolved" the skill sets in MMA?

[Stoo]

Originally Posted by SuperHut

3. There are people who recognize that Lee was ahead of his time and recognize him as the first guy to teach a Martial Art that was open to using what works rather than limiting oneself to style or tradition.

http://cdn.paladin-press.com/images/large/TOUGH.jpg

[SuperHut]

Originally Posted by rusty nails

godfather: A man who is influential in a movement or organization, through providing support for it or through playing a leading or innovative part


i dont disagree with that. theres no argument that lee qualifies in the above criteria.
what im saying is many others have done far more and lee is just drop in the ocean of martial arts knowledge.

Fair enough.

I think thread went in the direction it did because some ignorant people got sensitive that I included Lee at the top of my list.

[SuperHut]

Originally Posted by Stoo

http://cdn.paladin-press.com/images/large/TOUGH.jpg

Thank you for making the pic smaller.

I haven't read the book but I am interested in what Dempsey had to share. Have you read it? Care to share some light on what is in it?

And based on the #1 through #5 thing I posted about people's thoughts on Lee, I'm closer to #5 more than anything.

[Stoo]

I downloaded it years ago from megaupload but that is now kaput. It's a great insight into how to incapacitate a enemy [baring in mind it was written partly as an Army manual during WW2 I believe] using strikes underhooks, td's and submissions. It's quite an insight and you'll see more practical applications to use in modern MMA in Jack's book than you do in Bruce's TOJKD imo. The one thing it really lacks is the effectiveness of kicks, and defense on the ground. It's primarily an offense minded book

Was searching for a link but i found this

http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n...ee180/1700.jpg


“My investigation of technique took me on a long mental journey as I followed my fighting trail through the West...and I was getting pointers on self-defense from all the old-timers I met. Each trainer, each manager, each fighter, had his own ideas and his own specialties. Like a blotter on legs, I absorbed all that information in those days, and then discarded what seemed wrong.- Jack Dempsey, Championship Fighting"

Now like rusty said no doubt Lee was/is influential. But let's put all this ''Father/First'' malarky to bed please. It's a lot more ''sexy'' version of history, but quite frankly isnt true. If you want to say that Bruce inspired a lot of people to fight that's fine because it's true. But Helio Gracie and his sons would still be around if Lee had never been born...

Cross Trainers sticky is all you need to disprove that

[SuperHut]

Originally Posted by Stoo

I absorbed all that information in those days, and then discarded what seemed wrong.- Jack Dempsey, Championship Fighting"

Interesting quote. I know Dempsey was an influence on Lee in terms of punching mechanics. But I had no idea that one of Lee's marquee quotes could very well be a riff on what Dempsey said.

"Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless, add what is specifically your own."

[boranbkk]

Originally Posted by SuperHut

Hey Borabbkk, you gonna break it down like I asked?

Yep, but I'm in a different timezone and times an issue at the moment. Where do I start......ther's so much and I've done this in so many threads already! But as a taster check my post here on negating the sidekick, a heavily used by Lee:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

About me being ignorant and not willing to learn, well I was watching the 1st UFCs at the time just out of fascination but wasn't a serious follower as I've aleways been a Muay Thai purist. In the late 80s I owned the Tao of JKD which I found intersting and had a signed copy of JKD Kickboxing by Chris Kent and that book was utter shite. The Tao of JKD I found interesting, but you mention him breaking down MT, but I only remeber two small paragraphs mentionng how effetive the MT low kick was and how the dynamics where similar to western boxing. I guess he learnt set of the Big Boss.

About Muay Thai being a watered down version of Krabi Krabong, where did you get that shit from?

They are the same thing as is so called "Muay Boran", what people who know fuck all about Muay Thai call "a watered down from" is actually a stripped down form emphasising the common strands of varying regional styles leaving the most effective weapons in their bare form to create a ring sport.

You still haven't proved to me Bruce Lee ever had a meaningful fight?

And by the way what business does the JKD academy have teaching MT?????

[SuperHut]

"About me being ignorant and not willing to learn, well I was watching the 1st UFCs at the time just out of fascination but wasn't a serious follower as I've aleways been a Muay Thai purist. In the late 80s I owned the Tao of JKD which I found intersting and had a signed copy of JKD Kickboxing by Chris Kent and that book was utter shite. The Tao of JKD I found interesting, but you mention him breaking down MT, but I only remeber two small paragraphs mentionng how effetive the MT low kick was and how the dynamics where similar to western boxing. I guess he learnt set of the Big Boss."

- Lee produced more than just the Tao of JKD. It wasn't until about 12 years ago though, that more of his notes were released. His thoughts on MT were spot on. That it was a "sport", made good use of elbows and knees, was actually applied in real time, but lacked effective grappling and because it was a sport, didn't train or prepare for getting kicked in the nuts, eye gouges and was vulnerable to getting ears bitten off and how Tong Po could be easily controlled by simply grabbing his pony tail. Kind of like what Royce did to Kimo at UFC 3.

His notes on MT basically concluded that MT was vulnerable to the most basic and primal attacks and didn't prepare for them despite excelling in other areas of unarmed fighting.

"About Muay Thai being a watered down version of Krabi Krabong, where did you get that shit from?"

- I got that "shit" from a friend who traveled to the Buddhai Sawan institute in Thailand to study Muay Thai who was then introduced to Krabi Krabong while at the academy.

"They are the same thing as is so called "Muay Boran", what people who know fuck all about Muay Thai call "a watered down from" is actually a stripped down form emphasising the common strands of varying regional styles leaving the most effective weapons in their bare form to create a ring sport."

- by watered down, I meant that Krabi Krabong was used on the battlefield where swords and such were involved and there were no referees and people got kicked in the ribs while getting their necks slashed and their heads cut off.

"You still haven't proved to me Bruce Lee ever had a meaningful fight?"

- and I don't think I can prove it. All I can go by is the eye witness accounts from the people who were there to see Lee in a real scrap and how his notes on real fighting back up that he knew what the fuck he was talking about.

I also heard that the best Gracie was Rolls, but despite the fact that the only video available of him makes him look like an amateur, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt since he was the guy who introduced the triangle choke to the rest of the family when he went off on his own and started reading judo books and seeking knowledge outside of the family.

"by the way what business does the JKD academy have teaching MT?????"

- Guy named Chai Sirisute certified them to teach Muay Thai. Last time I checked, JKD wasn't really a style, but more of a philosophy that encourages people to use what works for them. So I guess the JKD guys figured out that MT has it's place in fighting, as long as you're not ignorant to it's limitations.


And remember... I'm the guy who posted the list of the milestone MMA fighters that gave you a hard on. Any time you want more lessons, feel free to ask and I will teach you for free. Only condition is that you don't whine if I mention JKD.

[SuperHut]

As for your thoughts on the side kick... I lost interest when you mentioned something about how you allow the MT community decide for you, the value of the side kick.

We all saw Cung Le use the side kick against Frank Shamrock. That was a brilliant fight and something I recommend you study.

DOn't get me wrong though. I'm not going to treat Frank as though he is some kind of Muay Thai Master who should have had answers to CUng Le's sidekick, but I will say that I was impressed with Le in that his primary tool against Frank was the side kick, and that Frank one day decided to enter K1 and his first fight ended in the opening seconds after throwing a thai kick that broke his opponents bones upon impact.

[Stoo]

Originally Posted by SuperHut

Interesting quote. I know Dempsey was an influence on Lee in terms of punching mechanics. But I had no idea that one of Lee's marquee quotes could very well be a riff on what Dempsey said.

"Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless, add what is specifically your own."

If Lee was around in 95 he'd talk about wanting to face Glamrock and Mercury...

[Rob_Floyd]

Originally Posted by SuperHut

DOn't get me wrong though. I'm not going to treat Frank as though he is some kind of Muay Thai Master who should have had answers to CUng Le's sidekick, but I will say that I was impressed with Le in that his primary tool against Frank was the side kick, and that Frank one day decided to enter K1 and his first fight ended in the opening seconds after throwing a thai kick that broke his opponents bones upon impact.

It may have been a K1 match, but his opponent was Shannon Ritch; a journeyman level MMA fighter with a sub .500 record.

[boranbkk]

Originally Posted by SuperHut

"About me being ignorant and not willing to learn, well I was watching the 1st UFCs at the time just out of fascination but wasn't a serious follower as I've aleways been a Muay Thai purist. In the late 80s I owned the Tao of JKD which I found intersting and had a signed copy of JKD Kickboxing by Chris Kent and that book was utter shite. The Tao of JKD I found interesting, but you mention him breaking down MT, but I only remeber two small paragraphs mentionng how effetive the MT low kick was and how the dynamics where similar to western boxing. I guess he learnt set of the Big Boss."

- Lee produced more than just the Tao of JKD. It wasn't until about 12 years ago though, that more of his notes were released. His thoughts on MT were spot on. That it was a "sport", made good use of elbows and knees, was actually applied in real time, but lacked effective grappling and because it was a sport, didn't train or prepare for getting kicked in the nuts, eye gouges and was vulnerable to getting ears bitten off and how Tong Po could be easily controlled by simply grabbing his pony tail. Kind of like what Royce did to Kimo at UFC 3.

His notes on MT basically concluded that MT was vulnerable to the most basic and primal attacks and didn't prepare for them despite excelling in other areas of unarmed fighting.

"About Muay Thai being a watered down version of Krabi Krabong, where did you get that shit from?"

- I got that "shit" from a friend who traveled to the Buddhai Sawan institute in Thailand to study Muay Thai who was then introduced to Krabi Krabong while at the academy.

"They are the same thing as is so called "Muay Boran", what people who know fuck all about Muay Thai call "a watered down from" is actually a stripped down form emphasising the common strands of varying regional styles leaving the most effective weapons in their bare form to create a ring sport."

- by watered down, I meant that Krabi Krabong was used on the battlefield where swords and such were involved and there were no referees and people got kicked in the ribs while getting their necks slashed and their heads cut off.

"You still haven't proved to me Bruce Lee ever had a meaningful fight?"

- and I don't think I can prove it. All I can go by is the eye witness accounts from the people who were there to see Lee in a real scrap and how his notes on real fighting back up that he knew what the fuck he was talking about.

I also heard that the best Gracie was Rolls, but despite the fact that the only video available of him makes him look like an amateur, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt since he was the guy who introduced the triangle choke to the rest of the family when he went off on his own and started reading judo books and seeking knowledge outside of the family.

"by the way what business does the JKD academy have teaching MT?????"

- Guy named Chai Sirisute certified them to teach Muay Thai. Last time I checked, JKD wasn't really a style, but more of a philosophy that encourages people to use what works for them. So I guess the JKD guys figured out that MT has it's place in fighting, as long as you're not ignorant to it's limitations.


And remember... I'm the guy who posted the list of the milestone MMA fighters that gave you a hard on. Any time you want more lessons, feel free to ask and I will teach you for free. Only condition is that you don't whine if I mention JKD.

Originally Posted by SuperHut

As for your thoughts on the side kick... I lost interest when you mentioned something about how you allow the MT community decide for you, the value of the side kick.

We all saw Cung Le use the side kick against Frank Shamrock. That was a brilliant fight and something I recommend you study.

Don't get me wrong though. I'm not going to treat Frank as though he is some kind of Muay Thai Master who should have had answers to CUng Le's sidekick, but I will say that I was impressed with Le in that his primary tool against Frank was the side kick, and that Frank one day decided to enter K1 and his first fight ended in the opening seconds after throwing a thai kick that broke his opponents bones upon impact.

This all seems to have got out of control...... again. Seems to always happen once Bruce gets involved, divisive character isn’t he!

Let’s back up a bit and remember all I did was question his record as a fighter as he's been put above tried & tested fighters with proven records, remember it’s fight forum I'm aloud to disagree. I did state pretty early on that his impact on the development of Martial Arts and how they are perceived in the wider world in general was hugely important and demands respect, as I’ve stated in many threads before I’m a Bruce fan.

I have no problem with differing opinions, but I can’t really get where you’re coming from or if you’re even for real, but your tone is condescending and your attempt to belittle me was as uncalled for as it was arrogant and I hate arrogance, it makes my blood boil. But, in the interests of forum harmony, cos this MMA forum is a pretty mature close knit place, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and extend an olive branch. We both obviously passionate about combat sports, but I think come from two different ends of the spectrum. You seem to value traditional martial arts where reputation is everything whilst I come from the side where reputation counts for nothing, it’s purely down to what you can do in or out the ring no matter who you are, in other words a “put up or shut up” attitude to fighting.

You’re very good at quoting other people whether it is out of a book or a friend, where are you in your posts? You asked me to get technical in terms of how an equal weight MT guy does the business on Bruce, so I point you to a previous post I wrote on how to negate the side kick a favoured weapon for Bruce, but instead of reading it and giving a technical counter argument you blow it off by saying you didn’t even read it? What is it you want? Cos as other posters on this forum know I’m only too happy to get technical in an MT context (time permitting of course!).

A couple of things I’ll bat back your way, I don’t doubt the authentic technique of the Buddhai Suwan school, but having lived in Thailand for over a decade I’m very aware of just how super nationalistic the Thais are and what a distorted view of their own history they have. This is country doesn’t acknowledge most of what is modern day Thailand was for over 500 years actually Khmer territory in other words Cambodian, they have total denial over it. I can only imagine what the touristy “Money School” of the Buddai Sawan institute are putting into starry eyed foreigner’s brains!

And since when was Chai Sirisute a bastion of Muay Thai greatness, the guys basically unknown in Thailand and born of the Bangkok elite FFS, his dad was a Bangkok lawyer. No being sold to a gym at age 6 for him and spending the next 20 years of his life separated from his family as cattle in the giant meat market of the BKK fight scene! I don’t doubt he was a competent practitioner and can teach a bit but dare I suggest he saw a good opportunity coming his way? I quote from his website: “The organization he founded, the Thai Boxing Association of the U.S.A. now has more than 70 branches in the U.S. and has gained representation in almost every U.S. state. It has also expanded to 15 countries around the world.” Hmmmmmm, money talks……I tend to always give Thais the benefit of the doubt and it’s no doubt it’s only good thing to spread the Muay Thai word, but really who is he to be so powerful in the American MT world? Without being too disrespectful to the guy, who is probably only guilty of filling a void at the time, maybe it’s because of guys like him that the American Muay Thai scene has surprisingly been so bereft of talent over the last 30 years and has struggled to produce a fighter capable of holding his own with a quality Thai until very very recently? Some very bizarre unauthentic training techniques in his own HL on his website that are not MT at all, bobbing and weaving!?!?!? That’s an MT 101 no no!

The other thing is, since when was Frank Shamrock been a credible example of even a mediocre Muay Thai fighter? Anyway, meant in good humour please feel free to “educate” me as much as you want and I gotta admit I found the Tong Po reference quite funny.

[sugarngold]

I would have to add Anthony Pettis to my list for the Showtime Kick. Although - technically Alan Belcher did a Showtime Punch at UFC 100. It wasn't until Pettis closed out WEC in legendary fashion that the paradigm of MMA shifted. It was akin to Royce Gracie choking out Dan Severn with a triangle choke at UFC 4 although he had already won two UFC events - just like Pettis and the Showtime Kick. His recent Showtime Knee to the chin of Donald Cowboy Cerrone - a seasoned hardened kickboxer - was simply phenomenal. It may not have knocked Cowboy down but it went straight through his guard and hit him square on the chin. This is exactly what Bruce Lee was talking about when he mentions becoming a free thinking creative martial artist.

[sugarngold]

Originally Posted by Stoo

If you want to say that Bruce inspired a lot of people to fight that's fine because it's true. But Helio Gracie and his sons would still be around if Lee had never been born...

Cross Trainers sticky is all you need to disprove that

That was an awesome post by the way. I would have to say that if Bruce Lee had never been around then that means there would have been no martial arts craze of the Seventies which essentially went on through the 80's until it fizzled on home video in the early Nineties - coincidentally at the same time as the beginning of the UFC. No one would ever have watched the first UFC, and MMA as we know it would not exist. The UFC would have come and gone with one pay per view and everyone but the Gracie Brothers would have gone back to Brazil.

No one was more responsible for the boom in popularity for the study of martial arts than Bruce Lee. An entire industry was born in his wake and his shadow supported everyone that came behind him.

[boranbkk]

Originally Posted by sugarngold

That was an awesome post by the way. I would have to say that if Bruce Lee had never been around then that means there would have been no martial arts craze of the Seventies which essentially went on through the 80's until it fizzled on home video in the early Nineties - coincidentally at the same time as the beginning of the UFC. No one would ever have watched the first UFC, and MMA as we know it would not exist. The UFC would have come and gone with one pay per view and everyone but the Gracie Brothers would have gone back to Brazil.

No one was more responsible for the boom in popularity for the study of martial arts than Bruce Lee. An entire industry was born in his wake and his shadow supported everyone that came behind him.

Even though I question Bruces's credibility as a fighter, I'm in no doubt about the impact he had on the western world, today his legacy is all around us in combat sports, entertainment and in some small way even a generations receptiveness to basic forms of eastern philosophy. The guy will always be a legend outside the ring, but unfortunately he'll always be just a hypothetical in the ring.

[sugarngold]

I understand. We can agree to disagree. But don't take it from me. Here's what Grandmaster Jim Kelly had to say about Bruce Lee.